I think I want to start again Options

[jojo]

Ok, those of you who know me will know me enough to know that I am a little 'screwed up' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

but I have had this thought since last night that I think I want AND 'need' to start learning the violin all over again

and what I mean by that is GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING! to the 'roots'

Not to go back to grade 4 or 5, but go back RIGHT TO THE START

Not so much with my violin hold/bow-hold and posture as I have done A LOT OF WORK on that in the last 12 months and I can honestly say I have 're-learnt' the violin from scratch in those areas, but I want to go back to the beginning with the 'repertoire' and the technique (ie the scales/theory etc side of things).

Are you all still there or have you fallen to the floor and trying to get your breath back? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

there is ONE problem with the above: 'my teacher', I think teacher will tell me I have gone 'bonkers' (this word will probably be 'blanked out' LOL so should have said 'crazy' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)) and will blankly refuse, quickly 'dismiss' my conversation and get on with the lesson by asking me to play the Bach sonata n.2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Ok, one would say 'why go back to pre grade one?' no need to go back that much surely? I feel I ought to start right from the start and leave no stone unturned, I feel that I have too many faults that I don't 'deserve' to play or try to play pieces at grade 8.

Ok, ok ok, one might say that if my teacher lets me it's because such an experienced person decided I 'can' and I have the basis to be able, so I should trust my teacher right? but I can't help to think I am making too many mistakes, my fingers are not reliable enough, if I go back to grade one and build a very strong solid reliable intonation then, only then, move up to the next level, then one day I will reach the pieces I play now with much better reliability no? I don't know, maybe it's because I can't compare to others, maybe it's because my teacher can compare to hundreds of other students he has had over the 60 years of teaching he has done and over his career as leader of famous orchestras he knows I can? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

All I know is that 'I' think I am 'not worthy' or ready to be where I am and I need to go (and am ready to go) A LONG LONG WAY back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[DiscoPants]

Well, it's not unheard of for first year music college students (with spectacular g8 distinctions, diplomas etc) to have to go back to bowing open strings to correct faults in their basic technique.
If you're really serious about being a top level player, maybe you have to do something similar?
Speaking as a listener, I would much, much rather hear a perfectly executed g4 piece than someone hacking their way through a Bach solo sonata. I think your teacher would probably have a great deal of respect for you if you explained to them what your goals were.

[mcm]

I can see where you are coming from but I don't think it would be a very efficient use of your time. Better to ask your teacher to set aside time to concentrate on specific areas causing you concern. For instance, there are good exercises by Simon Fischer on intonation. I also find that Sevcik op.8 on position changing is really good. I was taught to play the exercises slowly and accurately, using slides to learn the shift, and playing each one in a variety of keys so that the fingers have to learn different patterns. Boring but effective.

I know that if I went right back to the very beginning I would rush through too fast and not concentrate properly on what I should be doing. I prefer a combination of easier pieces (say grade 5-6) where I can pay attention to intonation and tone production without worrying about notes, with harder pieces to stretch me.

Do let us know what your teacher says.

[jojo]

Well, it's not unheard of for first year music college students (with spectacular g8 distinctions, diplomas etc) to have to go back to bowing open strings to correct faults in their basic technique.
If you're really serious about being a top level player, maybe you have to do something similar?

'exactly' Discopants..
it's because wanting to 'do it really well' means so much to me that I have come to this decision in my head.
I will never be a professional player but I want to 'play well' never-the-less and achieve high standards one day.
I think I ought to go 'right back'
you see...I had 'terrible' tuition between picking up the violin from the very first day and grade 4 and a half... I would hardly call it 'tuition' looking back...

I can see where you are coming from but I don't think it would be a very efficient use of your time. Better to ask your teacher to set aside time to concentrate on specific areas causing you concern. For instance, there are good exercises by Simon Fischer on intonation. I also find that Sevcik op.8 on position changing is really good. I was taught to play the exercises slowly and accurately, using slides to learn the shift, and playing each one in a variety of keys so that the fingers have to learn different patterns. Boring but effective.

I know that if I went right back to the very beginning I would rush through too fast and not concentrate properly on what I should be doing. I prefer a combination of easier pieces (say grade 5-6) where I can pay attention to intonation and tone production without worrying about notes, with harder pieces to stretch me.

Do let us know what your teacher says.

Hi mcm, I am already doing (when I do practice 'lately' erm, I have really 'slacked' with practice in last few months....due to working too much overtime) sevcik 8, the things you suggest are not new to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and I have already done the 'easier pieces' 'trick'.

I would like to totally 'drop' everything and start again from the beginning. Even forget I know how to shift, pretend I am pre-grade one! (quite a drop if you think I play regularly up to 6th-8th position at the moment).

Also I don't think my teacher will make me go right back to the beginning as I suggest, I will tell him when I see him friday but I think he will 'dismiss' me as he has already done before (though I have to say when I have mentioned it before it was in a hurry when I was having a 'little tantrum' during a lesson hehehehe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif))

[katica]

I almost had a heart attack when I saw the title of your new thread, jojo! I opened it with great trepidation, fearing that you were chucking the violin and starting from scratch with something totally new... Phew!! Evidently you aren't THAT bonkers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Actually I think there is some profound sense in all of this. At the beginning of last year I had had bit of a break because of bronchitis and "started again" with a method book my teacher hadn't used before... it was actually the second of two but takes you back to basics again with scale-arpeggio exercises and short related technical studies. It was really helpful but I felt that in some respects I had "gone backwards". My teacher said "not a it of it" and actually recommended picking up the same studies again in a couple of years. He thoroughly recommends going back to basics from time to time. It can also be quite a confidence booster because you will notice all the things that are so much easier the second time round and refine other aspects that were beyond you before...

But mcm is probably right that it's probably worth your time going right back to plough through grade one again. And perhaps you could do it in parallel with working on a piece that is a challenge for your current level so that you aren't entirely back in your "comfort zone"...

Whatever you decide, all the best in your 2012 musical adventures... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jojo]

I almost had a heart attack when I saw the title of your new thread, jojo! I opened it with great trepidation, fearing that you were chucking the violin and starting from scratch with something totally new... Phew!! Evidently you aren't THAT bonkers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Whatever you decide, all the best in your 2012 musical adventures... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) aaaawwwww thanks Katica!

am not giving up the violin no.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

the more I think about this the more I 'want' to go back to grade 1....teacher will not be happy with me on friday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[DiscoPants]

Don't even think you should be thinking in terms of grades.

[miffy]

I changed my entire technique after my gd5 - EVERYTHING!
And it was the best thing I ever did.
My teacher was very clever in being able to strip me of what I was doing and replacing it with proper technique while still playing decent pieces carefully chosen to learn how to use each new part of my technique, they weren't gd1 pieces.
I have done the same for many pupils along the way, and the success depends on how much they want to do it..you obviously do.

[jojo]

Don't even think you should be thinking in terms of grades.

no, but let's put it this way:
I think I 'ought' to go back to play just in 1st position until my intonation is EXTREMELY GOOD, I am not saying perfect as nobody's is, and I can play pieces in 1st position 'extremely' well ie:

-musically
-with good dynamics
-extremely good bow control with all types of bow technique

only and only then to incorporate the next position and then when the above is achieved move again to another position (or two whatever)

ie: go back to 1st and only step by step move ONLY when the very high standard is achieved by BOTH left and right hand.

Right now I am PANTS (not 'disco pants' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)) in all positions, especially 1st!!! and my bow skills are HORRIBLE

I changed my entire technique after my gd5 - EVERYTHING!
And it was the best thing I ever did.
My teacher was very clever in being able to strip me of what I was doing and replacing it with proper technique while still playing decent pieces carefully chosen to learn how to use each new part of my technique, they weren't gd1 pieces.
I have done the same for many pupils along the way, and the success depends on how much they want to do it..you obviously do.

I want to do it so much I am ready to play 'twinke twinkle little star' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

and I don't care how long I have to play it for, I just want to play well wwwwhhaaaaaaaaaa :'(

PS to Discopants: when I told teacher once before 'maybe we should go back to grade 1' he said 'don't be silly we are not doing grades' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

[BadStrad]

Reading this - I think we are in almost exact opposite positions, Jojo. I've been lucky to have an amazing teacher from the start who takes no prisoners when it comes to drawing out the best out of my playing. We decided early in 2011(during our 2011 goal setting chat) that we'd move away from grades and exams until such time as I might need or want to do them, so we've been free to play whatever pieces and techniques he or I decide on.

Despite the "not doing exams" thing a part of me still measures my progress by what's in which syllabus. Sometimes that makes me feel like I'm going soooooo slowly compared to others on the forum who have streaked through the grades (yes - I know - it's not a race), so much so that I heard my self muttering that I was going to "end up the best sounding grade three player in the world" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) because teacher won't let me rush forward and is such a stickler for spot on intonation I swear he has a tuner in his head! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Two weeks ago he said I had the best left hand of all his pupils - last week he was correcting it as my wrist was slightly off. . . . Even with simple pieces there always seems to be something to improve - Sometimes I think I will never reach the levels you've achieved in the years you've been playing.

Despite all this I mostly manage to swallow my impatience and go with his advice, because I have a friend who spent an awful lot of money trying to correct a vibrato that had got her through RWCM but wasn't taking her any further. I don't want to have to go back in years to come and fix what has become ingrained.

So for what it is worth I would go with your instinct to go back over the basics. Maybe not as severely as you're suggesting, maybe, grade three or four - pieces you should be able to get your fingers around easily, without vibrato (and not shifting at first). If you have doubts now is the time to find out if they're real or in your imagination and having that conversation with your teacher on Friday sounds a good plan.

A part of me feels this might be a csse of new year blues or something to do with your lack of practice time recently, but whatever the cause I think you're right to speak to your teacher about your concerns. At worse he agrees and you start again from scratch - at best he says X is fine, but yeah Y needs some time and effort. Either way you KNOW what you need to so.

Good luck!

[cestrian]

Why can't you play the easy stuff as well as the hard stuff? I try to include all levels of difficulty so I focus on musical quality for the easier pieces and just getting close to the right note for the tough stuff.

The harder pieces are not supposed to be played fabulously, they are there to stretch you. Eventually they become the easier pieces...

IMHO of course..

[jojo]

Reading this - I think we are in almost exact opposite positions, Jojo. I've been lucky to have an amazing teacher from the start who takes no prisoners when it comes to drawing out the best out of my playing. We decided early in 2011(during our 2011 goal setting chat) that we'd move away from grades and exams until such time as I might need or want to do them, so we've been free to play whatever pieces and techniques he or I decide on.

Despite the "not doing exams" thing a part of me still measures my progress by what's in which syllabus.

A part of me feels this might be a csse of new year blues or something to do with your lack of practice time recently, but whatever the cause I think you're right to speak to your teacher about your concerns. At worse he agrees and you start again from scratch - at best he says X is fine, but yeah Y needs some time and effort. Either way you KNOW what you need to so.

Good luck!

Hi BadStrad, thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
though I have taken the Grade 1 and 5 exams and was planning on taking the Advanced Certificate in November (grade 8 and I now have doubts as of these latest thoughts in my head, maybe 'pre-grade 8 nerves'? but also yes, am very busy at work and practice is getting less and less), I also play a lot of non syllabus staff with my teacher, I just don't go through the 'grades mill' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) but I often if not always talk of grades so that 'everyone' knows what level I am talking about, especially here on the forums where some people may not straight away know how beginner or advanced a piece may be if I just mention the music I play rather than what 'grade it is'....

not sure it is a 'new year's blues' as I have questioned whether I am 'worthy' to be where I am for now almost a year to be honest, I have only just started thinking of 'I should be going back to roots' in the last maybe 'three months' and it really 'hit home' in the last 2 days! (I first came out with it in my lesson in September I think then instead took the approach of: ok I'll prepare for an exam instead that will make me feel better! but it's not working).

Why can't you play the easy stuff as well as the hard stuff? I try to include all levels of difficulty so I focus on musical quality for the easier pieces and just getting close to the right note for the tough stuff.

The harder pieces are not supposed to be played fabulously, they are there to stretch you. Eventually they become the easier pieces...

IMHO of course..

Cestrian, very true what you are saying, but my intonation and bow skills still leave a lot to desire even with easier pieces I feel.....

Maybe it is because my teacher is EXTREMELY STRICT but he is 'still' telling me I am 'off' on my intonation virtually at every other note I play (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) this happens a lot more in first position than any other position.... though all positions he goes 'no no fix it fix it, it's sharp it's flat' and on and on and on and then 'it's a major third, it's a minor third, it's a fourth/a fifth, it's next to this and that, check it check it'!!! I dream of him sometimes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

I really can't get it right :'( I think I have 'too much' on my plate contending with all the notes over 8 positions that is why I feel I ought to leave it all 'out of the window' and go back to 1st position only until I 'master it' and only then start slowly adding more on top of it whilst slowly working on the bow skills too.

I feel I have to do too much: jack of all trades but master of none you see?

[lottie]

Good luck with Friday Jojo! I hope you can work something out.

I don't really feel qualified to offer any other comment but I find it comforting to go back to easier pieces sometimes just as a reminder of how far I have come. But I'm fairly laid back about my playing and consider myself just gently moseying along without the pressure of great ambition so I'm not sure what would help for you about going back to the beginning.

Hope you find a solution (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ffliwt]

Jojo you're making unusually fast/good progress, i really think youre on the right path with what youre doing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Youre a natural at violin and the huge progress youve made in a short space of time shows that whatever youre doing, is working! If I were you i'd pick a specific thing and go 'back to basics' with it but dont cut out everything else youre doing. I'm learning the Bruch concerto and Bach sonata no.1 at the same time as doing basic baby 'nee nah' vibrato exercises every day because my vibrato is so bad i think i need to take it back to basics - but that doesnt mean i need to start over i can carry on where i am. then when that is sorted, maybe i'll take something else and take that to basics and build it back up again etc. If youre feeling that things need to be overhauled (i genuinelly dont think they do with you but its up to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) then i'd do one thing at a time rather than cut everything back to basics. You're an advanced player - you'd be bored silly!!

[Rosie91]

I changed my entire technique after my gd5 - EVERYTHING!
And it was the best thing I ever did.
My teacher was very clever in being able to strip me of what I was doing and replacing it with proper technique while still playing decent pieces carefully chosen to learn how to use each new part of my technique, they weren't gd1 pieces.
I have done the same for many pupils along the way, and the success depends on how much they want to do it..you obviously do.

Jojo you're making unusually fast/good progress, i really think youre on the right path with what youre doing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Youre a natural at violin and the huge progress youve made in a short space of time shows that whatever youre doing, is working! If I were you i'd pick a specific thing and go 'back to basics' with it but dont cut out everything else youre doing. I'm learning the Bruch concerto and Bach sonata no.1 at the same time as doing basic baby 'nee nah' vibrato exercises every day because my vibrato is so bad i think i need to take it back to basics - but that doesnt mean i need to start over i can carry on where i am. then when that is sorted, maybe i'll take something else and take that to basics and build it back up again etc. If youre feeling that things need to be overhauled (i genuinelly dont think they do with you but its up to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) then i'd do one thing at a time rather than cut everything back to basics. You're an advanced player - you'd be bored silly!!

I agree with what others have said about rebuilding your technique without going back to square one - go back to basics and back to open strings by all means (and it sounds like you do these already) but don't abandon all the great music you're playing unless the frustration is making you hate it.

Here are some quotes from some articles by Simon Fischer I've just been reading that seem relevant:

Whether you are an elementary or a concert violinist, playing the easiest or the most difficult piece, most of the techniques used are the same. Apart from certain virtuoso elements that do not arise in simpler playing, to an extent an ?easy‟ piece is one where few different techniques have to be employed at the same time or in close succession; a ?difficult‟ piece is one where there may be dozens of different techniques employed simultaneously or in extremely rapid sequence.
The world-famous violin teacher Dorothy DeLay once said: ?Sometimes I wonder why anybody is ever interested in anything I have to say ? it all seems so simple!? The sort of playing she is typically dealing with, i.e. the big concertos and technical show-pieces, is made up of the same ?basics‟ that elementary pieces are. A concerto may be a thousand times more difficult than an elementary piece, but the language used to describe what is happening in them is basically the same for both.

source: http://www.simonfischeruk.com/Musicians...d%20chapter.pdf

So it's absolutely true that the basics are extremely important at all times, but since you are already able to play so much wonderful music, I think it would be more motivating to stick with that wonderful music. It's still possible to isolate techniques, e.g. by practising a passage with difficult string crossings on open strings and by practising the left hand without the bow - sorry if all that seems very obvious!

The higher you aim, the higher the price. Dorothy DeLay said recently that whenever a student says to her ?Miss DeLay, it‟s so difficult? (i.e. a piece or a passage), she replies: ?It‟s not difficult, sweetie, it‟s time-consuming!?

The need to use many different techniques simultaneously, as Fischer describes in the first quotation, is what makes difficult pieces time-consuming to learn. The fact it's so time-consuming is hugely frustrating if you're an amateur without much time. The music you (and I) are trying to learn is played by international professional soloists in concerts, but we aren't able to have a professional's practice schedule - or at least, the schedule the professionals followed for a decade or several decades of their lives - so it's bound to seem impossible at times, if not most of the time - see the bold part in the quotation below, which gives a potential solution:

The most important thing is always to go for results, not process. This means that you must have the clearest, most detailed image of the exact musical result you want to achieve (and often the physical actions that create it as well). A vague idea is not enough ? the end result you want must be as vivid in your mind as your actual playing.

The bigger the gap between the vision and the reality of the playing, the more our creative genius is stirred into action to bridge it, to make the two pictures as near to identical as possible. But that creativity doesn‟t start without a sharp awareness of the difference between what we really want and how things actually are. The clearer our musical wish, and the harder we listen, the faster we achieve what we are after.

Severe gaps between our ideal picture and reality can be painful. The only thing to do is to work with an intensity of purpose so that every phrase resembles ever more closely the inner vision. If we want to get the best out of ourselves, we have to avoid reducing the gap by other means. Making any sort of excuse spells the instant death of inspiration because the excuse takes the place of the vision.

source for quotations 2 and 3: http://www.simonfischeruk.com/Thoughts%20on%20practice.pdf

I think a mixed approach with pieces at a variety of levels, as Cestrian describes, would be the best way forward. It's true that there's plenty of music that has been labelled with low grades that's beautiful and worth playing (just yesterday I discovered the Meditation by Bridge and the Romance from the concertino by Bacewicz, both of which somebody has decided to call 'grade 4', and I'm tempted to get the music for both of them and learn them), but don't play any 'easy' stuff that really isn't worth it, or bore yourself, just for the sake of going back to basics - you can do that without losing the music!

Sorry if that ramble didn't bring up anything you hadn't already thought of, and good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)