Mirror Image Piano?, Any Suggestions? Options

[diapason]

A fairly new adult piano student has just had her sixth piano lesson with me. She came as a complete beginner (as far as I was concerned) but she is quick to point out that she did much studying of books and primers before starting lessons.

True - she knows the note names and values, treble and bass clef, staves, etc., etc., etc., BUT and it is a very big BUT

she came to me on her first lesson convinced that the piano keyboard was a mirror image of itself at middle C.

Do you get what I mean? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

From middle C ascending the note names are CDEFGABC...........naturally, but from middle C DESCENDING she thinks they are STILL CDEFGABC - in other words in reverse! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

and after 6 lessons, she STILL thinks in that way, and nothing I can say, do, or show will convince her enough to retain it at least until her next lesson. I think she has read a simple piano primer (Kenneth Baker Complete Piano Player) found out that the 5 right hand fingers start of with middle CDEFG and therefore, before reading on she thinks that the left hand is the same with the same fingers.......have I said that clearly.

I've suggested a keyboard chart to place over the keys, but it still does not convince her.

Actually, it's all a bit bizarre!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm NOT having a good week and its only half way through. I think I shall wander over to the "Scream Thread"

[dolce@piano]

I understand exactly what you mean. I don't have many adults but i've had some kids who've had that sort of problem. With them I've shown them little ladders with 1 2 3 and then counting backwards 3 2 1.

I think with an adult they obviously understand the order of the letters of the alphabet and the best way to do transfer this to the piano is to get her out of the middle C position straight away. Print off some easy piece in C major position and then a piece in G major or D or A minor - she can keep her 5 finger position but will have to associate the notes with the actual keys, not some invented mirror system (after all, middle C is just a note like any other, it's not point zero from which all positive and negative numbers feed out from).

[busylizzy]

A fairly new adult piano student has just had her sixth piano lesson with me. She came as a complete beginner (as far as I was concerned) but she is quick to point out that she did much studying of books and primers before starting lessons.

True - she knows the note names and values, treble and bass clef, staves, etc., etc., etc., BUT and it is a very big BUT

she came to me on her first lesson convinced that the piano keyboard was a mirror image of itself at middle C.

Do you get what I mean? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

From middle C ascending the note names are CDEFGABC...........naturally, but from middle C DESCENDING she thinks they are STILL CDEFGABC - in other words in reverse! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

and after 6 lessons, she STILL thinks in that way, and nothing I can say, do, or show will convince her enough to retain it at least until her next lesson. I think she has read a simple piano primer (Kenneth Baker Complete Piano Player) found out that the 5 right hand fingers start of with middle CDEFG and therefore,
before reading on she thinks that the left hand is the same with the same fingers.......have I said that clearly.

try drawing the whole 11 lines of the Great Stave, and put in the letters starting with A on the first space, up to G above the top line. This should clarify her thinking. It is fatal to start playing before learning WHY the letternames are where they are. The three octaves are those4 used by SATB, covering most of the voice ranges. Busylizzie

I've suggested a keyboard chart to place over the keys, but it still does not convince her.

Actually, it's all a bit bizarre!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm NOT having a good week and its only half way through. I think I shall wander over to the "Scream Thread"

[SueHM]

Maybe you could make some progress by getting away form the five finger position and doing some keyboard geography exercises based around the pattern of black and white notes. Move up and down over the whole keyboard playing simple repeating patterns on the black notes, then move to groups of white notes and naming the notes as you play eg CDE CDE CDE all the way up. You could build in a bit of aural work listening carefully to all the Fs, for example and noticing that they sound 'the same'.

Also try a bit of rote learning of a few fun tunes, to get away from the pressure of reading music and the attendant confusion.

Books I use for this sort of thing include Piano Adventures Primer and the European Piano Method (nobody else seems to have heard of this one, but it has great ideas for learning simple tunes by heart and making up simple accompaniments, and some lovely black note only pieces)

Good luck, sounds like a bit of a tough nut to crack!

PS Buzylizzy - are you having problems posting? - all I seem to see from you is quotes and then no comment - or am I missing something?!

[Dove]

Maybe you could make some progress by getting away form the five finger position and doing some keyboard geography exercises based around the pattern of black and white notes. Move up and down over the whole keyboard playing simple repeating patterns on the black notes, then move to groups of white notes and naming the notes as you play eg CDE CDE CDE all the way up. You could build in a bit of aural work listening carefully to all the Fs, for example and noticing that they sound 'the same'.

Also try a bit of rote learning of a few fun tunes, to get away from the pressure of reading music and the attendant confusion.

Books I use for this sort of thing include Piano Adventures Primer and the European Piano Method (nobody else seems to have heard of this one, but it has great ideas for learning simple tunes by heart and making up simple accompaniments, and some lovely black note only pieces)

Good luck, sounds like a bit of a tough nut to crack!

PS Buzylizzy - are you having problems posting? - all I seem to see from you is quotes and then no comment - or am I missing something?!

Buzzylizzy's comment's there, it's just within the quoted text = "try drawing the whole 11 lines of the Great Stave, and put in the letters starting with A on the first space, up to G above the top line. This should clarify her thinking. It is fatal to start playing before learning WHY the letternames are where they are. The three octaves are those4 used by SATB, covering most of the voice ranges. Busylizzie"

[dolce@piano]

SueHM,

I love the European Method - have a new 12 year old starting next week who I'm going to kick off with the Euopean Method book - I find it's a good balance between being young but not too babyish, musical and interesting but not too difficult.

[andante]

My daughter's first clarinet teacher showed her what I think was an old German book of piano music, where the lines ran vertically down the page, instead of across. So when the hands moved left the notes moved left. Has anyone else come across this. (I don't think I've explained what I mean very clearly)

[sbhoa]

Maybe go back to pointing out the repeating pattern of black notes and show that 'your' method is much easier to work with as the same letter name notes are in the same relative position every octave.
Try to reinforce the fact that if you start from C the keyboard is NOT symmetrical.

[Dora]

When learning something new we often have to "unlearn" something we already believe to be true. This happens to us all through our lives. The process of unlearning can be uncomfortable but we all have to do it.
If I have a student who has "got hold of the wrong end of the stick" I will explain this to them and spell out that only they can undertake this process.
I would also point out that the keys are labeled in this way by convention. And while her way of labeling the keys may have some logic (I am aware that it doesn't have any logic) it is not the convention and in order to learn the piano it will be necessary to learn the conventional way.
The point out that until she is willing to learn the conventional labeling progress will be limited and lesson time will be wasted.
Then stop worrying about it.
Good luck
Dora

[miffy]

The Alan Haughton Play Piano books (use the teenage one for an adult) and many of the adult beginner books start with left hand 5th finger on the C below middle C and thumb on the G above.
Try 1octave scales with her in different keys making sure her LH ones always start with 5th finger, and maybe some simple keyboard harmony, triads etc.
One of my new adult learners keeps going up the notes in whichever hand regardless of whether it goes up or down the stave, quite simply because from left to right on the page means from left to right up the piano...

[Mad Tom]

she came to me on her first lesson convinced that the piano keyboard was a mirror image of itself at middle C.

From middle C ascending the note names are CDEFGABC...........naturally, but from middle C DESCENDING she thinks they are STILL CDEFGABC - in other words in reverse! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

and after 6 lessons, she STILL thinks in that way, and nothing I can say, do, or show will convince her enough to retain it at least until her next lesson.

Incredible. Are you SURE you've explained it properly? After six weeks you would expect even the slowest of learners to have grasped such a simple point. Does she pay any attention at all? Does she have some kind of disease that affects her ability to form new memories?

If this is true it is very weird. Sounds more like a problem for a neuroscientist than a music teacher.
Oliver Sacks would be interested.

[just helen]

I once had a pupil, a young girl, who read the music backwards. She couldn`t read it forwards. I looked it up on the internet, and apparently there is a condition that involves reading backwards, (naturally, not as a trick), but I can`t remember what it is!

Of course, she gave up...

[stetenorve]

I once had a pupil, a young girl, who read the music backwards. She couldn`t read it forwards. I looked it up on the internet, and apparently there is a condition that involves reading backwards, (naturally, not as a trick), but I can`t remember what it is!

!eman ynnuf a tog ylbaborp s'tI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[maggiemay]

My daughter's first clarinet teacher showed her what I think was an old German book of piano music, where the lines ran vertically down the page, instead of across. So when the hands moved left the notes moved left. Has anyone else come across this. (I don't think I've explained what I mean very clearly)

are you thinking of klavarskribo?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klavarskribo

[Dulciana]

My daughter's first clarinet teacher showed her what I think was an old German book of piano music, where the lines ran vertically down the page, instead of across. So when the hands moved left the notes moved left. Has anyone else come across this. (I don't think I've explained what I mean very clearly)

are you thinking of klavarskribo?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klavarskribo

If notated music didn't exist, and this was presented as an option, I must say it looks like a good one!
What diapason describes isn't so unusual - though I've never heard of it being so extreme. I've had a few kids who get B and D mixed up in the early stages, and who play scales in completely the wrong direction - that sort of thing. I've often wondered why we have Middle C. Why not Middle D? D certainly has more of a feeling of being middling. Does anybody know the history of this? Is it simply because C has no black notes on a keyboard?