Cello bowing Options

[Tenor Viol]

Hi - I'm hoping for some guidance and advice with regard to cello bowing technique.

As you may be aware, I've just taken cello up 3 months ago after a 35 year hiatus. I wasn't very good when at school.

I've joined an orchestra aimed at beginners/returners - I'd say the best players are around grade 7ish (certainly lead cellist a Gr7) and most are less than that.

Rehearsals are quite intensive from 10.30 to 13.30 on Saturdays with a coffe break.

I've only had three lessons so far (next is on Tuesday).

I've had to change my bow grip so that all of my fingers are around the bow (I used to have my 4th finger balancing the stick, which I am told is a violin technique - probably because the peri back in teh 70s was a violinist).

I try to relax the bow arm so that the 'weight' of the arm is on the bow.

Trouble is that as the rehearsal proceeds and for a day or two after my right shoulder hurts. I'm guessing two things: flaw in technique/tension and/or not being used to playing for that amount of time.

Thoughts and advice gratefully received. I will discuss with teacher next week.

[immy]

Difficult to say without seeing you play, but one word you use might offer a clue: 'bow grip'. If you are gripping the bow you will already be too tense, and the tension will be traveling from your fingers right up into your shoulder. The official term is bow hold, and gripping definitely does not come into it. The bow hold should be so loose so that the bow would fall out of your hand if someone just slightly knocked it. Of course you need to be able to have a firmness at the same time otherwise you would not make a sound. Your teacher can show you this but it will take time to develop. Have a look at David Finckler's video lessons
http://vimeo.com/4434853

You may also be tense in your right shoulder and be lifting it higher than your left. I am only suggesting it because I tend to do it!

[Tenor Viol]

Difficult to say without seeing you play, but one word you use might offer a clue: 'bow grip'. If you are gripping the bow you will already be too tense, and the tension will be traveling from your fingers right up into your shoulder. The official term is bow hold, and gripping definitely does not come into it. The bow hold should be so loose so that the bow would fall out of your hand if someone just slightly knocked it. Of course you need to be able to have a firmness at the same time otherwise you would not make a sound. Your teacher can show you this but it will take time to develop. Have a look at David Finckler's video lessons
http://vimeo.com/4434853

You may also be tense in your right shoulder and be lifting it higher than your left. I am only suggesting it because I tend to do it!

Thanks. I try not to have a "Vulcan death grip" on the bow. I am aware that sometimes my shoulder is raised and I have to drop it. I don't do it when singing....

EDIT: thanks - useful link.

[owainsutton]

Unfortunately, all I can offer is agreement that it's impossible to diagnose without seeing you play. Even when you say the pain is in the shoulder, this covers anything from the lower neck, via the upper arm, to the middle of the back! That's not a complaint about your lack of precision, just an emphasis of how many muscles and tendons are involved.

One additional thing to consider is the position of your head. I hate it when an ensemble are all playing with music stands untouched from when they were set up, and cellos in particular seem to end up straining in various ways just to see the music.

The worst is when the more posture-aware but rather shy side of the desk asks the other 'It the stand OK?', and the perpetual sloucher mutters 'yes'. I've long ago worked out that it's better to be direct, and ask 'can I put the stand up a bit?'

[Dulcet]

Difficult to say without seeing you play, but one word you use might offer a clue: 'bow grip'. If you are gripping the bow you will already be too tense, and the tension will be traveling from your fingers right up into your shoulder. The official term is bow hold, and gripping definitely does not come into it. The bow hold should be so loose so that the bow would fall out of your hand if someone just slightly knocked it. Of course you need to be able to have a firmness at the same time otherwise you would not make a sound. Your teacher can show you this but it will take time to develop. Have a look at David Finckler's video lessons
http://vimeo.com/4434853

You may also be tense in your right shoulder and be lifting it higher than your left. I am only suggesting it because I tend to do it!

Thanks. I try not to have a "Vulcan death grip" on the bow. I am aware that sometimes my shoulder is raised and I have to drop it.

Not a cellist but I watch my son like a hawk... and I was once a bad violinist. Try and make sure that you use the shoulder, the elbow AND the wrist to maintain the bow parallel to the bridge. Don't raise the shoulder, move the upper arm in the shoulder joint, the elbow and the wrist to achieve this. If necessary, sit in front of a mirror and get someone to keep their hand on your shoulder - this will show you what's necessary! And yes, cellists don't counterbalance with their little fingers like violinists do. Someone on this forum said "pussycat paws" - that's a great image which I think is very helpful!

My alexander technique teacher gave me a complete road to Damascus moment in how to hold a telephone *just using my hand* and not tensing every muscle from jaw to fingertip - have a think about this as well, it's not necessary to have the cords on your neck standing out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Tenor Viol]

Unfortunately, all I can offer is agreement that it's impossible to diagnose without seeing you play. Even when you say the pain is in the shoulder, this covers anything from the lower neck, via the upper arm, to the middle of the back! That's not a complaint about your lack of precision, just an emphasis of how many muscles and tendons are involved.

One additional thing to consider is the position of your head. I hate it when an ensemble are all playing with music stands untouched from when they were set up, and cellos in particular seem to end up straining in various ways just to see the music.

The worst is when the more posture-aware but rather shy side of the desk asks the other 'It the stand OK?', and the perpetual sloucher mutters 'yes'. I've long ago worked out that it's better to be direct, and ask 'can I put the stand up a bit?'

Thanks for this - I try to have my head level - I work at a desk and a PC all day so if I don't pay attention to this it's osteopath visits for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I'll pay attention to those other areas and check what I'm doing that I shouldn't.