Balancing The Violin Options

[MollyB]

The earlier question about bow pressure has got me thinking of another question.

When you hold the violin, how much of that balance is the cheek/jaw holding it in position? In the "Basics" book Fischer shows a gap between the base of the thumb and first finger which I can only achieve if the violin is almost clamped into position under my jaw and the thumb plays no role in balancing the violin.

He also demonstrates playing the violin with the thumb held away from the neck so that it is not putting pressure on the violin. So I deduce from this that the jaw holds the violin in place but the thumb has a very minor (or no) role. The thumb doesnt hold the violin in any way. Am I making sense and am I correct?

And another question...... how much about technique can one really learn from a book, even one as comprehensive as "Basics"? Fischer was a student of Juilliard, so he presumably has included techniques learned during his time there. If I could interpret Fischers book correctly and put it into practice I'd be teaching myself methods taught by arguably the worlds best teachers.

But, is that really achievable?

Will I be able to learn it effectively by myself or will I need a teacher who knows it too (and how many of those are out there)?

I'm tempted to say "I learn it from a book".... but I cant do justice to Andrew Sachs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Sunrise]

The earlier question about bow pressure has got me thinking of another question.

When you hold the violin, how much of that balance is the cheek/jaw holding it in position? In the "Basics" book Fischer shows a gap between the base of the thumb and first finger which I can only achieve if the violin is almost clamped into position under my jaw and the thumb plays no role in balancing the violin.

He also demonstrates playing the violin with the thumb held away from the neck so that it is not putting pressure on the violin. So I deduce from this that the jaw holds the violin in place but the thumb has a very minor (or no) role. The thumb doesnt hold the violin in any way. Am I making sense and am I correct?

And another question...... how much about technique can one really learn from a book, even one as comprehensive as "Basics"? Fischer was a student of Juilliard, so he presumably has included techniques learned during his time there. If I could interpret Fischers book correctly and put it into practice I'd be teaching myself methods taught by arguably the worlds best teachers.

But, is that really achievable?

Will I be able to learn it effectively by myself or will I need a teacher who knows it too (and how many of those are out there)?

I'm tempted to say "I learn it from a book".... but I cant do justice to Andrew Sachs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The jaw holds the violin. With a little practice it will feel comfortable and you will be able to let go completely with your left hand. I'm assuming you have a decent shoulder rest?
Yes, it is definately achieveable. I turn pages with my left hand in rehearsals with my violin still under my chin.
Just practice, and remember that the instrument needs to point to your left a bit, not straight forward.

[Vitula]

I hold the violin with my jaw and my shoulder rest, but it is balanced with my left hand too, I can easily manage the gap but still I tend to 'clamp' on with my left thumb. I dont know why I do this, as I can also turn pages etc... with my left hand, so it really does not need to clamp on to support the violin.

Interestingly with my viola I do not use a shoulder rest as I cannot get one that suits me as the depth is quite big, I'm happy not using a shoulder rest with it, but it means that I cannot hold with the chin rest at all, so I have to give it more support with my left hand, and boy are violas heavy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[viola-mad]

The instrument should be held between your jaw and shoulder (I always wondered why it was called a chin rest and not a jaw rest, but that's another story). There should definitely be no clamping going on though, as you will start to hurt before long. You should use the weight of your head to hold the violin in place. The left hand should be free to let go of the neck of the violin. Watch a more advanced violinist tune and you will most likely see they operate the pegs and adjusters with their left hand whilst bowing normally.

Supporting the violin with the left hand may be seen in Baroque playing where chin and/or shoulder rests may be absent, and in some folk traditions. However you will find it difficult or impossible to use vibrato or start flying up and down the positions if you hold it this way. It might affect your tuning too. It's best to get these things right early on rather than have to try and un-learn an ingrained habit further down the line. For that reason I would suggest a few lessons with either a teacher or at the very least a more advanced player.

Might be worth working with your teacher to review your chin/shoulder rest setup. It can be uncomfortable and make you feel like you're going to drop the instrument if the setup isn't right for you.

[jojo]

ok, this is one that does not have a straight answer!

MollyB, do you use a shoulder rest or not? as things can be quite different with and without one.

Without a shoulder rest the thumb as a major role and takes part in holding the violin, without a shoulder rest it is your collarbone (NOT shoulder) and your left hand primarily holding the violin and the violin can be held without the chin or jaw putting any pressure on the violin and just a little when you do downward shifts (together with lifting the scroll up).

With a shoulder rest the left hand is a lot more free, but this does not mean it is better to play with a shoulder rest, what is better is what makes you a happy/confident/tension-free player. Whether you play with or without shoulder rest if you do not get pain during your practice you are probably doing a lot of the things right, if you get a little tension here and there you probably need a little 'tweaking'.
I also think that sometimes we can 'analyse' TOO much and end up worrying too much about little things when there is no need to (I know I have done and am guilty as charged (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif))

ps Simon Fischer uses a shoulder rest......it 'could well be' that his teaching is 'tailored' around this and left hand technique 'can be' (depending on one does) quite different with and without a shoulder rest

I hold the violin with my jaw and my shoulder rest, but it is balanced with my left hand too, I can easily manage the gap but still I tend to 'clamp' on with my left thumb. I dont know why I do this, as I can also turn pages etc... with my left hand, so it really does not need to clamp on to support the violin.

Interestingly with my viola I do not use a shoulder rest as I cannot get one that suits me as the depth is quite big, I'm happy not using a shoulder rest with it, but it means that I cannot hold with the chin rest at all, so I have to give it more support with my left hand, and boy are violas heavy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Vitula this is VERY interesting.....do you 'clamp' with your thumb when you play the viola too? if not, have you though about NOT using the shoulder rest on the violin too?
it's just that you mention the left thumb squeeze problem with the violin and no problems with the viola hold (apart form a heavier instrument...)

[MollyB]

Interesting, thank you for the feedback!

To clarify, I do play with a shoulder rest and I have it almost at maximum extension in order to minimise the bend of my neck.

Secondly, I can hold the violin in place pretty easily with my jaw if I'm turning a page for instance, but its when I go to play that I need to "clamp" it in place because I have to counter the pressure coming from my fingers. I'm working with what Fischer demonstrates and its becoming easier; however my intonation has gone out the window while I get used to this new positioning of my hand!! Nothing is where it used to be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If I support the violin with my left hand tension sets in. That as you say Viola-Mad affects shifting although I'm still learning 3rd position and am not 100% confident with it yet.

This is the bad habit I'm now trying to unlearn as I wasnt aware until recently that it was wrong! I had been having lessons but my teacher hadnt noticed it either.

Vitula, I am an ex- "thumb-clamper" too (for want of a better term!). Now that I'm aware of it, I realise how limiting it has been - the dreaded 4th finger stretch problem was all down to my thumb clamping.

What do you all think about trying to learn this sort of thing from a book? If your teacher isn't familiar with it (and I imagine that many are not), is it possible to learn it solely from the book?

[Organistin]

He also demonstrates playing the violin with the thumb held away from the neck so that it is not putting pressure on the violin. So I deduce from this that the jaw holds the violin in place but the thumb has a very minor (or no) role. The thumb doesnt hold the violin in any way. Am I making sense and am I correct?

Correct. The jaw holds the violin. You should be able to take your left hand away completely and bow open strings.

[Fran*Piano]

The instrument should be held between your jaw and shoulder (I always wondered why it was called a chin rest and not a jaw rest, but that's another story).

This led to my cousin when she first began learning holding the violin directly under her chin, so that her chin was resting on the chin rest-very odd!

[Violin Hero]

He also demonstrates playing the violin with the thumb held away from the neck so that it is not putting pressure on the violin. So I deduce from this that the jaw holds the violin in place but the thumb has a very minor (or no) role. The thumb doesnt hold the violin in any way. Am I making sense and am I correct?

Correct. The jaw holds the violin. You should be able to take your left hand away completely and bow open strings.

I would also agree with this. I have held my violin with my jaw before whilst writing bowings/fingerings into pieces I have worked on in the past.

The thumb is just used to get a good left hand shape, if you ahve th thumb incorrectly positioned you can find it hard to get notes beyond 3rd position. The thumb ceertainly does not hold the violin.

[Vitula]

ok, this is one that does not have a straight answer!

I hold the violin with my jaw and my shoulder rest, but it is balanced with my left hand too, I can easily manage the gap but still I tend to 'clamp' on with my left thumb. I dont know why I do this, as I can also turn pages etc... with my left hand, so it really does not need to clamp on to support the violin.

Interestingly with my viola I do not use a shoulder rest as I cannot get one that suits me as the depth is quite big, I'm happy not using a shoulder rest with it, but it means that I cannot hold with the chin rest at all, so I have to give it more support with my left hand, and boy are violas heavy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Vitula this is VERY interesting.....do you 'clamp' with your thumb when you play the viola too? if not, have you though about NOT using the shoulder rest on the violin too?
it's just that you mention the left thumb squeeze problem with the violin and no problems with the viola hold (apart form a heavier instrument...)

Hmm interesting question, one that I cannot answer without going to my viola to let you know, I cant say I have noticed thumb clamping at all on the viola now that you mention it, I will practice tomorrow and let you know. I have had goes on my violin without a shoulder rest when I have been lazy and just picked it up for a quick go, and I have to say I did not find it uncomfortable at all but was aware I could not support it with my jaw.

Vitula, I am an ex- "thumb-clamper" too (for want of a better term!). Now that I'm aware of it, I realise how limiting it has been - the dreaded 4th finger stretch problem was all down to my thumb clamping.

What do you all think about trying to learn this sort of thing from a book? If your teacher isn't familiar with it (and I imagine that many are not), is it possible to learn it solely from the book?

I am fully aware that I clamp my thumb and agree 100% about this limiting the fourth finger stretch as I have to consiously relax my thumb to do it.

I too am utilise the Basics book for technique that doesn't get covered in my group lessons, but I do have to really read every detail to make sure I am doing it right. It would be far easier being shown by a teacher I'm sure.

[Violin Hero]

I think, Violin Hero, what you meant was 'the thumb certainly does not hold the violin if you choose to play with a shoulder rest'. If you play without one, then your thumb is absolutely crucial in balancing the violin. The old myth that this stops you from using vibrato or shifting is nonsense. It has never stopped me, or any other player who doesn't use one (I'm certain Mutter would take exception with the idea that a shoulder rest is some magical object that makes expressive playing possible and without one we can't do certain things - doesn't seem to hold her back much)

I do wish people wouldn't assume that the shoulder rest is a necessary part of violin playing or that you can't play properly unless you use one - how silly. It's not part of the instrument, for goodness sake.

Using one is a choice - it's as simple as that. If you're more comfortable with one, use it - if you're more comfortable without, don't.

I didn't use one for the first couple of years that i learnt to play violin. Then I got told it would help and since I tried one I have never been without a shoulder rest.

I do know that it is perfectly possible to play very well without a shoulder rest, it is just that i have rarely seen anyone who does not use one.

[viola-mad]

I do wish people wouldn't assume that the shoulder rest is a necessary part of violin playing or that you can't play properly unless you use one - how silly. It's not part of the instrument, for goodness sake.

Using one is a choice - it's as simple as that. If you're more comfortable with one, use it - if you're more comfortable without, don't.

Fully agree. It depends entirely on the individual and, if you're a violist, the depth of the viola. I have quite a long neck, so for me playing without a shoulder rest is incredibly uncomfortable (I have tried it!). However I know several extremely good musicians, one of whom has a Master's degree in music performance on fiddle, who do not use a shoulder rest. It certainly doesn't hamper them - but I should add, they are the exception rather than the rule. The majority use some kind of shoulder rest, and I maintain that it makes life much easier when you're doing a lot of shifting.

Presumably you would use a different style of vibrato if you were supporting the instrument with your left hand? Do correct me if I'm wrong. I tend to use mostly arm vibrato on the viola - I don't quite know how I would do that without a shoulder rest.

Incidentally, my performance Master's, shoulder-rest-free friend tells me that the vibrations of his instrument are far better without a shoulder rest, and I quite like the idea of that. (Although I don't like it enough to put up with the pain of having a cricked neck whenever I play!)

[MollyB]

Allan you raise a very good point about the height of the shoulder rest. Having played around with the height a bit I can see what you mean. Thanks for the tip!

Let me ask another question then; leaving aside the issue of personal preference for working with or without a shoulder rest, if you work without a shoulder rest doesnt that put the neck and head at an odd angle? And over the course of the years wouldnt that cause strain in the muscles concerned?

I have no bias either way about shoulder rests, it just seems logical to me that if you hold the head and neck at an unnatural angle for a number of hours/week, that some sort of strain might set in at some point down the line.

For those of you who have experience of working without one, is that not the case?

[BadStrad]

its when I go to play that I need to "clamp" it in place because I have to counter the pressure coming from my fingers. I'm working with what Fischer demonstrates and its becoming easier; however my intonation has gone out the window while I get used to this new positioning of my hand!! Nothing is where it used to be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hi MollyB. I find that I clamp when I'm concentrating on a new piece, in lessons particularly - my teacher is always unfurling my hand. When I'm relaxing, playing for myself - no clamp.

The exercise I'm using to help is like the one on page 90 of Fischer. I support the neck of the violin on a bookcase (for reassurance, so I won't tense up) and then play scales with out using my thumb.

Good luck.

[Vitula]

Well the answer to Jojo's question is no, I don't clamp my thumb when playing the viola. I find that if I use a shoulder rest with the viola I get terrible pains in my neck and feel that it pushs my neck over to the right slightly, I've even got a little soft pad on it, and thats still too much, Its really better with nothing (although I get a corking mark on my clavical and it gets tender (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I think I'd be happy playing my violin with or without a shoulder rest, but I'm nowhere near the stage of doing vibrato, so maybe thats the difference. I dont have a short neck by the way. I dont think my teacher would accept playing without a shoulder rest, she is of the opinion you need one. When I start my proper viola lessons with her in September I dont know what she will say, but no way can I use one with the viola.