Singing lessons for children Options

[Dulcet]

That's an encouraging post! Of course it is slightly different for boys, which was I suppose my main reason for posting, but still, it's good to see how quickly improvement can come. DS1 has now had his second lesson and also had a 1-1 rehearsal with our church DofM in preparation for the Dean's medal, and no two ways about it he has come on a lot. I rather doubt you'll notice on Saturday, though... still a bit wobbly, had another phone call today.

[jod]

I'm glad your son had a good lesson Dulcet.

There is evidence over the range that is suitable for children to use at various ages. As long as they are enjoying their singing and singing in their specific comfortable range then that is fine.

I harp on about this time and again because I have colleagues who have told me what happens when they pick up children as teenagers who have overused their bottom notes and not got any flexibility in their top notes over the importance of exploring the whole range in comfort and in a manner that is fun.

I'm not the only one who has experience of teenagers who have huge 'breaks' where they should have smooth transitions between ranges. Their vocal apparatus is not as robust as an adult's. This is where the trained singing teacher comes in, and it is important.

If I attempted to teach the violin, hands would be thrown up in horror, but every one thinks they know about singing don't they?

[soccermom]

There is evidence over the range that is suitable for children to use at various ages. As long as they are enjoying their singing and singing in their specific comfortable range then that is fine.

I'd be interested to know more about this. What does the evidence say are sensible ranges for 14 and 12 yr old girls?

[Dugazon]

There is evidence over the range that is suitable for children to use at various ages. As long as they are enjoying their singing and singing in their specific comfortable range then that is fine.

I'd be interested to know more about this. What does the evidence say are sensible ranges for 14 and 12 yr old girls?

It's not so much about how old they are, more about what stage of vocal development they are in - some voices change early, some late, so it's much more important to actually listen to the voice first. It's virtually impossible to say what stage a 12 year old girl is in without hearing and seeing her (and maybe even knowing a couple of other things (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). If she's developing late, her voice could still be unchanged (although that seems to become more and more unlikely), or she could be already in stage 3 or 4.

I wrote a pretty lengthy post about mutation in girls' voices this once: http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showt...hl=young+voices

Generally speaking (!), unchanged female voices usually should be kept in a central range between D and D, with obvious changes depending on the individual: Some can safely be taken to F and beyond, some shouldn't.

When the voice changes, the female range can become much less for a while, it will sound breathy and unstable and drops (albeit not as dramatically as in boys). The most difficult stage is usually roundabout stage 3 (time of the first period in girls), where everything higher than A/B can (not must!) become a struggle - again, this is individual, some have more, some less problems. That's why these are really just house-numbers, and no one can say: "That's the ideal range for a 12 or 14 year old girl" - it depends on the individual girl (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[soccermom]

Thanks Dugazon. I've read your very interesting previous post.

In this case, although I said 12, she is actually 11 for another month and physically is completely undeveloped.

Neither daughter has done any "high impact singing" with their teacher (if I understand what you mean by that term). I am very keen to ensure the girls sing only stuff that is appropriate to their ages (words as well as music) and the teacher very much shares that attitude.

They don't have a lesson for another couple of weeks, but I'll ask the teacher what stage she thinks they are. Based on what you've said here and in the earlier post, I'm assuming 1 going into 2 for the younger one and still in 3 for the just 14 yr old.

[jod]

Yes thanks Dugazon! The fact you stressed that this is very dependent on the individual is the thing most people don't get! They also don't get the fact that transition happens to girls as well as boys.

Even as an undeveloped female voice I sang up to an A or B but had not notes below middle C and trying to push me lower would have been a bad thing.

6-7 year old boys often have little control of their undeveloped voice at all, then suddenly within a month they have a fifth, then an octave, and then just before transition quite a wide range.

Whether after transition they decide to follow the legit/classical route or use more contemporary techniques, as long as their teacher can hear when things don't sound right and observe tell-tale signs of strain before they get ingrained then as young singers they can look forward to a long and happy time enjoying their singing.

However to ask what should a 12 -14 year old be singing when transition could well be starting is as silly as asking Dugazon to sing Lyric Coloratura Solos out of her range without transposing them first, then giving me Belter Standards that suit her and expect me to perform them in her favourite keys. We are our voices and she is a mezzo and I have a high Soprano voice. You would expect us to excel at different things, just as you would expect some twelve year old girls to sing higher than others, and some to have wider ranges than others.

That is why singing teaching is a bit more specialised than many make out.

[ExpressYourself]

Do you think that popular music is affecting the ranges of transitional and pre-transitional girls?

I listen to a lot of children singing and there are some sweet 12 year old girls whose voices match the ranges discussed in Deirdre Trundle's book. These girls seem to like singing show tunes and disney. However, I see a lot of girls the same age or younger who prefer singing along to pop music, Miley Cyrus, Amy Winehouse. All songs which are a lot lower and they seem to be able to sing comfortably between G3 and G4 with a speech quality. If I am to be responsible (which I really want to be!!) do I just let them sing the range they want, given that they are not straining or struggling in any way. Or should I be encouraging them into the C4-C5 range in a much more sweet singing style. Something that they struggle to do and are embarrassed doing!

Of course these girls are just doing a bit of casual extra curricular activity but that doesn't mean I shouldn't understand as best I can what they should and shouldn't be doing. My main objective is to ensure that no one is straining or damaging their voices, I am also aware that time and again Jod, in particular, discusses the need to ensure that upper range is (what's the word... not worked... not maintained... just used?) I'd hate to think I was party to them losing that upper range (although I am adamant no one will be using speech quality up there, or belting) Ideally I'd have them all sounding like sweet little girls but at the end of the day, most of them are anything but!

Does that make sense? I'm not always very clear so please ask for clarification if you need to!

[jod]

One does not speak in ones upper range, these are sung notes. If before transition a girl has never found them and has got stuck in middle to bottom range she can develop a break rather than a smoothe transition into these higher notes.

It is the cocal equivalent of somebody fitting a syncro-mesh box and suddenly putting a crash-gear box in specifically to access the top notes. Now if she's used to producing a smooth gear change it sounds effort-less, otherwise the is a huge 'break' at the point of the vocal equivalent of the double de-clutch.

I know this is a motoring analogy, however having just driven around the centre of Madeira where due to the gradient on the roads decent hill-starts and smooth gear changes were rather the order of the day somehow I've got the mechanics of driving on my mind!

Get all the transitions between the vocal ranges smooth by making sure the whole voice is gentle used without pain and not over produced, then as the voice does go through transition and more technique is added, these clear boundaries between head, middle and chest voice for legit/classical singing, and legit, twang and chest belt for contemporary techniques can be made smoothly keeping the placing in the correct place for each technique and therefore promoting vocal health.

Most people speak in their chest register using a bit of middle as they get excited. The head voice does not get used unless absolutely terrified!

The change from the use of folk-music to popular music where the melody is sung by a belter does encourage girls to sing too low IMHO. However there is nothing wrong with transposing music to a more appropriate key.

[Maria]

Do you think that popular music is affecting the ranges of transitional and pre-transitional girls?

I listen to a lot of children singing and there are some sweet 12 year old girls whose voices match the ranges discussed in Deirdre Trundle's book. These girls seem to like singing show tunes and disney. However, I see a lot of girls the same age or younger who prefer singing along to pop music, Miley Cyrus, Amy Winehouse. All songs which are a lot lower and they seem to be able to sing comfortably between G3 and G4 with a speech quality. If I am to be responsible (which I really want to be!!) do I just let them sing the range they want, given that they are not straining or struggling in any way. Or should I be encouraging them into the C4-C5 range in a much more sweet singing style. Something that they struggle to do and are embarrassed doing!

Of course these girls are just doing a bit of casual extra curricular activity but that doesn't mean I shouldn't understand as best I can what they should and shouldn't be doing. My main objective is to ensure that no one is straining or damaging their voices, I am also aware that time and again Jod, in particular, discusses the need to ensure that upper range is (what's the word... not worked... not maintained... just used?) I'd hate to think I was party to them losing that upper range (although I am adamant no one will be using speech quality up there, or belting) Ideally I'd have them all sounding like sweet little girls but at the end of the day, most of them are anything but!

Does that make sense? I'm not always very clear so please ask for clarification if you need to!

This is definitely something you could raise at SATA. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dugazon]

Hi ExpressYourself!

Essentially, there's nothing wrong with kids using Speech quality, it's the most natural and accessible vocal quality. The thing you DO need to watch is that the range adults naturally use in Speech is not the same as that of kids - and pop songs have the tendency to be written for adult voices. You simply might have to transpose the songs a bit. It's not if they can sing that low (most kids can) -it's if they can sustain in that particular range without straining or getting tired (a lot, albeit not all, can't):

Another thing is indeed learning to use different vocal set-ups and not being stuck in one. A lot of untransposed pop songs willl render a kid's voice inflexible and will indeed make it hard to access lighter qualities later on (happens to adults as well btw, just that their voices can usually take more abuse before lasting damage is done):

Let kids use Speech, just make sure it's THEIR Speech, not an adult's. And mix it up with lighter qualities and teach them how to get a smooth transition so they actually HAVE a choice later on.

[jod]

One of the things we accuse out younger son of doing is speaking in a whiny voice. This is because he has a high speaking voice, and when he gets excited it goes up very high indeed!

On the other hand, when he is sad, the pitch lowers.

He naturally has a high treble voice.

What he will do when his voice hits transition is anyone's guess.

If he is like his brother MatthewD, then by the time he hits stage 4-5 his emergent voice will still be heading for tenor, but will lack the top end. Matthew may only be 12, but I've tracked stages 1,2,3 and he is now on stage 4 of transition. He is singing throughout his emergent range, making a beautiful sound, and enjoying it.

The music is being kept simple and limited in range to notes he is comfortable singing.

So he's not a treble anymore. Instead we both enjoy working with what he's got, and it is still lovely.

That's the key with children and teenagers work with what you have, and not with what you think you have.