Organist retiring... Options

[Swell Box]

This is all quite dreadful. However, the responsibility always rests with the vicar/rector/minister. It is he or she that must sort this out.

Barry Williams

Quite right.

I (and others) have discussed the matter of said Reader with the previous incumbent on several occasions. He openly admits that 'there is a problem', but then says that the Reader has 'anger management issues', and that he 'wouldn't want to tackle him on the subject'. He also says that Reader's wife suffers badly from stress, and that he wouldn't want to make things worse for her. (Never mind the rest of us.)

The present incumbent likes to delegate everything to local DCC's and sub committees, thereby sidestepping any difficult decisions.

Rather than grasp the nettle, we had a Parish Review about two years ago where the 'management style' of the Reader, and lack of decision making at the top were identified as major obstacles. Predictably, nothing has changed.

SB

[Barry Williams]

This highlights the difficulties of not addressing the real issue at the material time. The incumbent, if unwilling to address a major issue, should consult the archdeacon. The parishioners, indeed, should have referred this matter to the archdeacon or the bishop years ago. It is easy to be wise after the event, after the harm has been done and after the people have left the church - for ever - they do not come back.

The present incumbent cannot delegate pastoral matters, such as appear to be presented by these two rather sad people. Further, it having been identified as an issue in a Parish Review, the incumbent is obliged to take the necessary action.

Readers, incidently, have no managment function as readers whatsoever, so they cannot have a 'managment style' that gives rise to problems. Likewise, the incumbent cannot delegate musical matters to anyone save the organist and choirmaster. PCCs and DCCs, like music/worship committees, have no authority because the incumbent retains all powers under Canon B20.

I have, quite recently, come across a case of an unfortunate couple in a choir whose interpersonal skills were rather lacking. Everyone just put up with them. The incumbent refused to take action because they were 'very good givers'. One of the churchwardens took a different view and expressed the matter in somewhat direct terms. The situation certainly improved.

Musicians in churches do seem to suffer rather a lot from lay intervention of an unforunate kind. The law is there to support them, as are the members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy. However, actually taking action is difficult and people often prefer to leave. It is good that Swell Box Junior has a happier place at which to play. My wife and I have been to the church and know the Director of Music. It is a good place with a superb organ.


Barry Williams

[Barry Williams]

Post Deleted

[Pianotimes]

Just to update you all. I have agreed to play for evening services now. Talked to minister and agreed we would look into splitting the money. I think the organist really does want to retire altogether but not wanting to drop everyone in it... iyswim. I have also stuck my neck out in worship consultation meeting and said that if I am doing this then evening services need to change(gosh!) to suit a smaller gathering as sometimes there are just a handful of people in the evening. In the morning its fairly full.
Anyone else any experiences of any formats / music which have worked well with just a few? I want people to feel comfortable rather than battling to sing 5 hymns, when there's sometimes only four or five people! (sometimes up to twenty). The current organist or preachers don't seem to make allowances... Us Methodists are die hards for our five hymn sandwich. The organist seems to play the same as when there's a full morning congregation, I think I would soften it a bit so that people aren't straining to sing over it?
I do think a few more people would be there if they felt more comfortable.
Hope this makes sense!

[Swell Box]

There needs to be a certain 'critical mass' of worshipers for singing to work, and I think five is very close to that limit, especially if the service is held in a large church building.

Is there an option to move the service into a smaller meeting room, for example, and to use a piano?

One of our midweek communion services here was dying a few years ago, and the one hymn was dropped because nobody felt comfortable singing it without accompaniment. The service was held in the quire, but without organ, whilst the nearest piano was too far away to be of use.

Eventualy the decision was made to move the service to a meeting room, which is comfortable, easier to heat, and has a piano. There was a lot of resistance at the time, but the congregation now numbers twenty or more most weeks.

SB

[vectistim]

I was going to suggest Compline in the Lady Chapel as a more gentle sing, until I realised its a Methodist church, so that probably wouldn't work. Having said that I think plain song psalms are really quite suitable for a small congregation - neither the singers, nor the organ should be trying to make as much noise as possible, I suppose that's a question as to whether your congregation and leaders would find that too Roman.

I presume then that unless you use a meeting room out back your essentially stuck with the main church, could you put reserved stickers on all the pews bar the front two to encourage everyone to sit together when there aren't very many there? If the handful that are there are sitting together they can then hear each other which can give some confidence to their singing, as opposed to the typical arrangement where everyone has a twenty foot exclusion zone and can't hear anyone else.

[Pianotimes]

Thanks for your replies. We sadly don't have a meeting room downstairs, only upstairs which probably wouldn't work to get people up there, but still worth thinking about. The steward could direct, help anyone not sure after all.
As vectisim points out its hard to persuade people to sit together. There's a small alcove area at the back of the church which if we had a piano we could take across there could work well to gather people together more. Its already used as a quiet prayer area with candles. This is one option we are considering, as well as purchasing a piano to use, another thing we are working on! Any more ideas welcome of course.
Anyway, playing the organ for a large circuit service at the church next Sunday evening when I think we'll be full so here goes...

[Swell Box]

I was going to suggest Compline in the Lady Chapel as a more gentle sing, until I realised its a Methodist church, so that probably wouldn't work. Having said that I think plain song psalms are really quite suitable for a small congregation - neither the singers, nor the organ should be trying to make as much noise as possible, I suppose that's a question as to whether your congregation and leaders would find that too Roman.

I presume then that unless you use a meeting room out back your essentially stuck with the main church, could you put reserved stickers on all the pews bar the front two to encourage everyone to sit together when there aren't very many there? If the handful that are there are sitting together they can then hear each other which can give some confidence to their singing, as opposed to the typical arrangement where everyone has a twenty foot exclusion zone and can't hear anyone else.

I always thought that sitting at the back was an Anglican trait. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

One previous Rector in this parish encouraged the Evensnog congregation (usually numbering no more than 12 souls) to sit together in the quire, rather than spreading themselves out in the rather large church. He made several announcements that Evensong would, in future be held in the quire, and even explained his reasons in the parish magazine and newsletters.

After about six weeks most of the congregation were happy to move to the quire, but four or five continued to sit in 'their pews' at the back of church. One week, out of sheer exasperation, the Rector turned the lights on in the quire, but left the remainder of the church in darkness.

You might think the 'awkward few' would have taken the hint and moved to the quire, or perhaps walked out, or even found the light switches, but they didn't. They just sat in the darkness at the back! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

SB

[Barry Williams]

I am at a total loss to understand the issue here.

What is wrong with worshippers sitting where they feel most comfortable? Why would any clergy person feel moved to be so unpleasant as to deprive someone of light in an act of worship? I would prefer to be welcomed into church, not directed to sit in often uncomfortable choir stalls designed for children, faced by a choir and organ belting out loud music. My wife and I have suffered this. We stopped attending Croydon Parish Church Evensongs. and then Beddington Parish Church Evensongs, for precisely this reason - we were ordered around in a very unpleasant way instead of being allowed to say our prayers and join in the service quietly, from the pew rather than elsewhere. (On one occasion at Beddington a lay reader tried to order me to sit in a front pew before commencing her sermon. Needless to say I just got up and walked out. It was totally insensitive and, at a very low point in my life. Although I have played for services there I would NEVER EVER risk being in the pew there again, though the management of the church is now very different and this could never happen again.)

This all smacks of an elitism imposed by some people, who think they should decree where folk should sit in church, even though the churchwardens have the legal right to direct persons where to sit.

I am reminded of an instance, only weeks ago, where a clerical personage decreed that the parish could not afford an organist for the Evening Prayer on the third Sunday of the month. A worshipper offered the fee but it was denied by the incumbent. Even when the organist offered to play without a fee it was denied.

I am sorry indeed that people who prefer to choose their seat in church are termed 'awkward'. How does any of this help anyone?

Barry Williams

[Swell Box]

I am at a total loss to understand the issue here.

What is wrong with worshippers sitting where they feel most comfortable? Why would any clergy person feel moved to be so unpleasant as to deprive someone of light in an act of worship? I would prefer to be welcomed into church, not directed to sit in often uncomfortable choir stalls designed for children, faced by a choir and organ belting out loud music. My wife and I have suffered this. We stopped attending Croydon Parish Church Evensongs. and then Beddington Parish Church Evensongs, for precisely this reason - we were ordered around in a very unpleasant way instead of being allowed to say our prayers and join in the service quietly, from the pew rather than elsewhere. (On one occasion at Beddington a lay reader tried to order me to sit in a front pew before commencing her sermon. Needless to say I just got up and walked out. It was totally insensitive and, at a very low point in my life. Although I have played for services there I would NEVER EVER risk being in the pew there again, though the management of the church is now very different and this could never happen again.)

This all smacks of an elitism imposed by some people, who think they should decree where folk should sit in church, even though the churchwardens have the legal right to direct persons where to sit.

I am reminded of an instance, only weeks ago, where a clerical personage decreed that the parish could not afford an organist for the Evening Prayer on the third Sunday of the month. A worshipper offered the fee but it was denied by the incumbent. Even when the organist offered to play without a fee it was denied.

I am sorry indeed that people who prefer to choose their seat in church are termed 'awkward'. How does any of this help anyone?

Barry Williams

In fairness Barry, there was no choir, and the organist at that time was an excellent musician who was able to choose registration appropriate for the very small congregation present. I think it would also be fair to say that the choir stalls were very much more comfortable than the pews in the nave. The wonderful, and very ornate John Cosin rood screen (which successive Rectors have tried to tear down) also makes the nave very remote from the quire.

Evensong was clearly struggling both in terms of numbers and viability, and I think the Rector was simply trying to make the service 'work' as best he could with the very limited numbers attending.

However, there was one other crucial factor that I did not mention before: The real reason that the 'awkward few' refused to join the other congregants in the quire was that there were women present, and the ring leader of this rather destructive little group had long let it be known that he did not think it appropriate for women to enter the chancel. (For example, he would walk out if a woman administered the chalice, or if a nave altar was used.) The Rector found this attitude distasteful and I suspect was probably trying to bring matters to a head; which he certainly did in the end! Whilst I disagreed very strongly with the opinions of these people, I doubt that the situation would have arisen had it not been for a group of disaffected Methodists who had the ear of this particular Rector, and were using him to impose their liberal ideas on the entire church.

All in all this was a most unhappy situation all round, and went much further than telling people where they should sit. However, the Rector could also be very tactless on occasions, and upset quite a lot of people during his period in office.

Anyone reading these posts might be thinking that we have a lot of 'oddballs' in our local church; and they would be absolutely right!

SB

[Pianotimes]

[quote name='Barry Williams' date='Jul 9 2012, 05:23 PM' post='1158943']
I am at a total loss to understand the issue here.
What is wrong with worshippers sitting where they feel most comfortable?

Indeed Barry I had only meant to ask about how we could do things (organ and music wise) to suit a smaller number of people and make a more relaxed and comfortable experience.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Someone please go and start another much more interesting thread about really clever organ things (I might not know much to comment being no expert but will be interested to read and learn something.)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[feebee]

what an interesting discussion. I started playing regularly in my local church about 2 years ago. There was never any discussion, I was just paid the going rate and I used the money to buy music and have some lessons as i was rather rusty in the pedal department! I feel my playing has improved and the congregation certainly say it has, so I feel I have put the money back into the church. I am lucky that I dont rely on the money to live, but the next organist might not be so fortunate.

[Barry Williams]

"I am lucky that I dont rely on the money to live, but the next organist might not be so fortunate."

This is so very important. It is essential that the proper fees are taken. The costs of running the music will appear in the annual account and the church will then get used to paying the going rate.

Organists who are able and willing to do so may chose to donate their fees to a church or charity, ideally with Gift Aid. Playing for free should never be expected. (Luke 10 verse 7).

Barry Williams