Singing Teachers In The North West Options

[Scaramouche]

Can anyone recommend me a singing teacher that is based in the NW? Preferably near to Manchester. I could look on various websites but I'd rather a recommendation first to be honest.

Thanks.

[AnnC]

Careful with your superlatives, Rosfrog. There must be many teachers in the North West bristling at your comment that somone else is the "best singing teacher" in that area. How do you know? Do you have knowledge of other teachers in the area?
Experts in vocal anatomy and technique do not necessarily make the best singing teachers. There's far more to it than that, as I'm sure you know. Vocal health is only a small part of the picture. If I were Manchester based, my first port of call would be staff at the Royal Northern College of Music, who could possibly give a more all round training, and who, I'm sure, would not harm a voice.

[Holz Gedeckt]

Careful with your superlatives, Rosfrog. There must be many teachers in the North West bristling at your comment that somone else is the "best singing teacher" in that area. How do you know? Do you have knowledge of other teachers in the area?
Experts in vocal anatomy and technique do not necessarily make the best singing teachers. There's far more to it than that, as I'm sure you know. Vocal health is only a small part of the picture. If I were Manchester based, my first port of call would be staff at the Royal Northern College of Music, who could possibly give a more all round training, and who, I'm sure, would not harm a voice.

Yes, I agree entirely.

If you want to personally recommend somebody, perhaps sending a PM to the OP would have been rather wiser. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Dugazon]

If I were Manchester based, my first port of call would be staff at the Royal Northern College of Music, who could possibly give a more all round training, and who, I'm sure, would not harm a voice.

While it is certainly a good idea to contact a Conservatoire, Uni or College, I would beg to differ about the last part of your sentence, AnnC: Teaching/lecturing at a Uni does not necessarily make a voice teacher flawless - in fact, very far from it.
Some (not all of course!) voice teachers at Unis are people who had a rather extensive performance career, are/were good singers themselves but do not necessarily have the required teaching skills (sorry to say that, but it's true) - all the more if they are the breed of naturally talented people who teach everyone by ways of: "It worked for me, so it'll work for you!" but cannot really take a more abstract approach.

Out of my own experience: much rubbish gets taught at Universities (you of course also find really good teachers there, but you'll never know what you are getting before you meet them, and even then, a fairly unexperienced person might not notice it straightaway). I was still taught that high notes can feel uncomfortable, even sore at the start, but that the throat discomfort will ease off by just singing them - by a very high-profile soprano who was a fabulous singer herself but quite frankly didn't have a clue about the voice and how it works. She ruined a few voices, brought out a couple of good ones, too - usually they were voices very similar to her own. This is a very personal experience, so certainly not the rule. All HE teachers being good ones certainly isn't one either though.

So I find that saying: "Teachers from a College certainly won't harm your voice" equally invalid as saying that one person might be the best teacher around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sorry Scaramouche, I don't know teachers in that area so cannot really recommend anyone, but I would advise you to meet different people and then to decide which approach works best for you. Maybe also to listen to some of their students, always bearing in mind that a beginner will of course sound different from an advanced student.

[AnnC]

I thought I'd do what she asked in her original post - make a recommendation. I also think that if I want to answer her question openly, I'm perfectly entitled to do so.

Any recommendation is just one person's experience. I'm giving mine - feel free to give yours.

Lord, why are singers and singing teachers so precious. It's tedious.

It's not a case of being precious. If you had said everything that you did say without saying he was the best in the North West, I wouldn't have had the slightest problem. Your recommendation is as valid as the next persons. You have experience of him and "many other teachers in the area" - but not ALL, so your statement is only true to the extent that he is the best teacher you have had experience of. We have to remember that people seeking singing teachers may value judgements placed on here by regulars, and may accept them at face value, which could possibly make someone avoid a perfectly good teacher.
I did not go to the extent of recommending one particular person, merely saying that professors at conservatoires wouldn't harm a voice. I never heard a voice harmed when I was at a conservatoire (I'm not talking about universities or other HE establishments). Not knowing the area, I feel a conservatoire is a good palce to start, rather than someone from, say an advert in a paper.
Incidentally, being taught breathing in the way you describe (inflate stomach and push), is not something I come across very often amongst other teachers, only amongst some who should perhaps more be described as coaches, who have their own place in the system. There are some bad teachers out there, it's true, but an awful lot of good ones as well. More than you'd think, reading some of the teaching bashing that goes on on these forums sometimes. After all, who knows whether I or anyone else who posts on here actually knows what they are talking about without sampling our teaching or hearing our students?
If we're not careful this could drag up the old argument over whether or not one should be qualified, and whether that should be a consideration.

Sorry, Scaramouche - it's not like me to be so controversial, but there ARE some really good teachers about. I would recommend you look at ISM, AOTOS, and ask in local music shops for recommendations, then audition a few.

[Scaramouche]

Eek, caused a slight storm haven't I...

I should have probably given a bit more information, but I was in a rush when I posted it. I'm about to qualify as a secondary school and peri music teacher. I've had to use my voice quite a bit this year and I do not really think it's that good. I'd like a bit more confidence with it if anything else, hoping lessons may give me a bit of that. Also I am helping out with a choir and just wanting to be a bit more experience with my voice.

[freda_bloogs]

I have two to make: one lady named Kate Brian who got me up to Grade 8. I don't know how much teaching she's doing at the moment though, she often goes off round the world for various productions and things. If you're interested, I can put you in touch. She's an opera specialist, very well connected and very friendly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) She's an RNCM grad, too.

My second would be Rosfrog! I had a lesson with him and was very impressed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Scaramouche]

I've found one teacher (female) who looks good and went to RNCM. Need to pluck up the courage to ring and say something stupid...

I have no doubt that Dane is exceptional, but looking at his prices...bit out of my reach really!

Thanks for all the help, I'll let you know if I actually do something about it...!

[Alcie]

Deborah Catterall has a very good reputation, and although she doesn't actually live in Manchester, she has lots of contacts in the area. I would be happy to recommend anyone that she recommends. She's also lovely. I know her though the national youth choirs of great britain.
If budget is a serious issue, I would expect she could recommend a young teacher who is still under her supervision.
You could probably contact her through Laudamus (her choir, in Wigan) or, if you want to PM me, I'll try and put you in touch.

Good luck!

[freda_bloogs]

Deborah Catterall has a very good reputation, and although she doesn't actually live in Manchester, she has lots of contacts in the area. I would be happy to recommend anyone that she recommends. She's also lovely. I know her though the national youth choirs of great britain.
If budget is a serious issue, I would expect she could recommend a young teacher who is still under her supervision.
You could probably contact her through Laudamus (her choir, in Wigan) or, if you want to PM me, I'll try and put you in touch.

Good luck!

Yep indeed she does, I know someone who had lessons with her for years.

[petrat]

Just out of curiosity I looked up the coach that you mentioned, Rosfrog. If I had been looking for a singing teacher his website would not have appealed to me. I think that if any teacher advertised their services in a way that made it look as if the tried and tested methods of classical training were not the best way forward I would have serious doubts.

Good luck with your lessons Scaramouche, and with your teaching career too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dugazon]

I think that if any teacher advertised their services in a way that made it look as if the tried and tested methods of classical training were not the best way forward I would have serious doubts.

Which tried and tested methods do you exactly have in mind? I would really be interested in an answer to this, maybe even in a new thread to not hijack this one any further. Some of the classical ideas ARE overcome, but of course we can all go on and use Lehmann's image of the resonance-shift to the top or back of our heads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

And why would strictly classical technique be "the best way forward" if you e.g. don't want to sing classical music?
This would actually worry me more if I was a prospective student (and I studied and teach both, so I'm certainly not anti-classical!) - it usually brings out singers who try to sing high-energy contemporary repertoire with a lowered larynx, which both sounds rubbish and is potentially harmful ...

[AnnC]

I've been wondering why there has been no reply to rosfrog's latest post, but maybe people have been taking time to digest it - or dare I say, calm down?

Rosfrog, I've read and reread your post many times over, and I still feel somewhat offended by it. Despite your constant assurances, it still (to me) reads "avoid classical teachers, some are good, but most are not, and find a teacher such as Dane, who has a one size fits all approach, and can help anybody - but it's OK, it's based on scientific evidence". This is achieved in one sentence, quoting Janice Chapman: "most classical singing tuition let's students down". If this is not classical teacher bashing, than I don't know what is.

As you rightly say, one needs to understand the anatomy and physiology of the voice to be able to teach it effectively, safely and well. I agree that students do need to learn how to build their voice, but I don't agree that they need to know all the scientific names of the muscles, etc. and what is actually happening in order for them to achieve it. A dyslexic student, for instance, or a child/teenager, or an adult trying lessons for fun as a hobby would switch straight off and run. I remember one new student telling me she had one teacher who "used big words", but "did not tell me how to do it in words I could understand". needless to say her technique was terrible.

A good teacher needs to be able to teach the method without using frightening or confusing terminology. Flouting big words is like blinding people with science, and can be very offputting. It can come across as being big-headed if one is not careful (notice that I didn't say you), and one of the most important things about teaching is building trust and relationships, and for this you need to be approachable and down to earth. You don't hear GPs, for instance use medical terminology to their patients, they manage to convey the message in layman's terms. Just because classical teachers don't always use technical terms, doesn't mean they don't know them. They may be experienced enough to be able to adapt their teaching to convey the same thing to someone who would say - I only want to learn to sing. You and I know it's all part of it, but you just have to disguise it.

I agree that some progress can be made in hours, but not that you can have a few lessons and be on your way. You yourself said that constant reviews are essential, but since most people cannot afford daily lessons, once a week has to be enough - some people can only afford fortnightly lessons. You imply that Dane can cure all in a few consultations. I daresay you are right. But then the student goes away and bad habits kick in again if they are beginners. A singer needs another pair of ears regularly. That's why the top opera stars have regular "check-ups" as a norm, and why I and other teachers have occasional lessons - to check that what we are doing is still the best. Pop stars, I suspect (though I don't KNOW) seem to me to only seek advice if there is a problem. That's why, if you listen to them over a number of years, you can hear the deterioration in their voices. Not only pop stars, but famous music theatre belters too. Yes, progress is made immediately, but as muscular strength grows, and young people vocal folds mature, they still need lessons to oversee the progress. So they can't just have a few lessons with an expert. They need ongoing help, so cost is an issue.

Why is it that opera singers are still performing in their 60s and even 70s with undamaged voices, making it look effortless? I accept there are the exceptions - there are exceptions in all walks of life. And why is it that some pop stars LOOK as if they are being strangled and LOOK as if they are straining as a matter of course?

I don't think any good classical teacher leaves it to the student to try and emulate a sound. We're always looking to correct the method in order to achieve a better sound. You make a some sweeping statements about classical teachers' methods in your efforts to sell the modern approach. I accept that the anatomical approach is good - if taught by a GOOD teacher. Personally, I don't teach belting or pop or rock, etc. I give a phone number out of someone I know who specialises in it. I do that, not just because it's not my area of expertise, and I wouldn't teach it if I were on the breadline, but because, in my experience, there are a great deal of non-classical teachers out there who are "qualified by experience" and do not have Dane's (or your) training.

So there we are. I think we both agree that there are good and bad teachers in both camps. A good classical teacher is as good as a good modern teacher. There's no need to upset either. Unfortunately your post came across (to me) as classical teacher bashing - we haven't moved on, learnt about new discoveries, adapted our teaching, etc. Some of us do, and some modern teachers don't either. Some have never even heard of a larynx, never mind it can be tilted.

Finally, I would say, listen to a teacher sing, or their students. But bear in mind that all teachers are going to have beginners and advanced. I suspect that the ones whose tracks are playing on Dane's website are his best advertisements. To all, I would say, have a listen and see what you think. None of them are classical (in rosfrog's defence, he says that the site is meant to appeal to singers of other styles, but that he himself teaches all) - so classical singers would be put off having lessons with him. Why not advertise a classical singer if you teach them? None of the testimonials are from classical singers either. Do you like the sound of what you hear? Are they all in tune? Do they all move effortlessly from one register to another? And having listened, would YOU go to him? I leave you all to make your own minds up.

[Holz Gedeckt]

Hear, hear! Thank you, AnnC. I agree with all that you say. You've put what I had intended to post, but far more eloquently - and in more detail - than I. I actually lay in bed this morning mentally penning my response! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I guess that the reason that other singing teachers are not responding to Rosfrog's post are because several have decided to block him out of sheer irritation at posts such as this....

[AnnC]

Hear, hear! Thank you, AnnC. I agree with all that you say. You've put what I had intended to post, but far more eloquently - and in more detail - than I. I actually lay in bed this morning mentally penning my response! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I guess that the reason that other singing teachers are not responding to Rosfrog's post are because several have decided to block him out of sheer irritation at posts such as this....

Thank you - I have also received PMs saying the same thing.