Spiccato, technical question Options

[Debra]

Hi

When you play spiccato should you play this with the bow wood slightly tilted away from you or the hairs flat. My book say's with the hairs flat --- but i don't know if this is actually correct?????? (this is not what i am tought).

Also what is "springing stroke" (Coup d'archet sautille) is this spiccato or somethink else??? AS far as i know, sautille is the fast spiccato --- is this correct?????

thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

[Violin Hero]

Hi

When you play spiccato should you play this with the bow wood slightly tilted away from you or the hairs flat. My book say's with the hairs flat --- but i don't know if this is actually correct?????? (this is not what i am tought).

Also what is "springing stroke" (Coup d'archet sautille) is this spiccato or somethink else??? AS far as i know, sautille is the fast spiccato --- is this correct?????

thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

I have been taught to have a flat bow stroke when doing spicatto and not to do the spiccatto too close to the frog of the bow to get the best sound quality.

[Debra]

perhaps there are two schools of thought on this??????????

[Violin Hero]

perhaps there are two schools of thought on this??????????

Possibly. My teacher has flat bow when doing spicatto and it sounds excellent I trust everything he teaches to me.

There of course can be more than one way to do the same type of bowing.

[jojo]

perhaps there are two schools of thought on this??????????

Possibly. My teacher has flat bow when doing spicatto and it sounds excellent I trust everything he teaches to me.

There of course can be more than one way to do the same type of bowing.

I always keep getting confused with all these bowings, what is 'staccato' then (like what Heifetz plays in Hora Staccato see youtube anyone who's interested, lovely video!)
and is the spiccato Violin Hero is talking about the short 'bouncing' bows, ie your bow does like a half moon type of travel and hits the string in the middle of the half moon journey? (if you understand what I mean? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) )ie start off string, hit string and bounce off it? as that one I do with the hair flat like you Violin Hero (well usually anyway, something different might happen if I am not paying attention and playing a mixture of slurred and spiccato quickly)

in the staccato I am learning (Kreutzer n.4) I have to keep the bow on the string all the time, no bouncing, wood of bow towards fingerboard in upbows, wood of bow towards ME in downbows.

[Violin Hero]

Staccatto is playing the note detached but still on the string while spiccatto is a short off the string note.

[jojo]

Staccatto is playing the note detached but still on the string while spiccatto is a short off the string note.

Thanks Violin Hero, what I was thinking of was 'right' then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenm]

There is also the possibility of playing a short note off the string where the bow angle remains constant and the hand and arm control the (roughly) semi-circular arc, whereas in spiccato the bow is rotating about the hand and the time between notes is strongly influenced by the position of the contact point on the bow and on the string. Off-the-string staccato gives a short ring after the note, which is suppressed if the bow remains on the string. Also, you can use this movement at the heel (e.g. for a loud, short final chord).

[Debra]

Hi Kenm, I have always been taught to listen for the "ring" with spiccato, which is off string, hence the name spiccato. It's just i have been taught that this should be done with bow wood tilted away from you, but i do read in a book that it should be played with hair flat. I have never been taught or read about spiccato beibg done by rotating bow in hand,-------i'm not saying this is wrong ---- just not read or heard about it.

Staccato is on the string --- as far as i know and have been taught. Also different types of staccato.

jojo, the one where you don't take bow off string - do you mean sautille (fast spiccato)? If so my book also say's this should also be done with bow hair flat.

all very confusing!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif)

[kenm]

Hi Kenm, I have always been taught to listen for the "ring" with spiccato, which is off string, hence the name spiccato. It's just i have been taught that this should be done with bow wood tilted away from you, but i do read in a book that it should be played with hair flat.

Tilting away is upper string only; 'cellists and bass players tilt towards, thus making the same sort of angle with the instrument. When I learnt spiccato (on bass) from Christopher Bunting, he said nothing about tilting. I think I flatten a bit when I do it, to give greater freedom to hand and wrist, not because I think it affects the sound in itself.

I have never been taught or read about spiccato beibg done by rotating bow in hand,-------i'm not saying this is wrong ---- just not read or heard about it.

In spiccato, the point moves more than the heel, so there is an element of rotation.

Staccato is on the string --- as far as i know and have been taught. Also different types of staccato.

Staccato just means shortening the note and is not specific to strings. I don't think I'm the only person who can do it either on or off the string.

[jojo]

jojo, the one where you don't take bow off string - do you mean sautille (fast spiccato)? If so my book also say's this should also be done with bow hair flat.

all very confusing!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif)

yes it can be confusing (well it is to me! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )
for staccato I mean the staccato Heifetz plays HERE
sorry to mention Heifetz and nothing else but I am learning staccato after this example, I have not read about it in books.
IN this he plays with stick tilted towards scroll in upbows and towards bridge in downbows, not coming off string and that's the way I have been asked to learn it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) boy it's hard to do properly!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (like everything else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

[Debra]

Hi jojo, i can well recommend reading about the different bowings, as you will see why i am a "tad" confused. There are so many!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I have a couple of books on right arm/bowings ------perhaps not a good idea after all????????????????????
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

I have got the very basics sorted out (or so i think), but then gets loads worse.
My guess is --i'm probably worrying too much about it, at too earlier level, perhaps.

I hope learning the piano is not quite so bad ----i'm hope

[miffy]

Hi jojo, i can well recommend reading about the different bowings, as you will see why i am a "tad" confused. There are so many!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I have a couple of books on right arm/bowings ------perhaps not a good idea after all????????????????????
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

I have got the very basics sorted out (or so i think), but then gets loads worse.
My guess is --i'm probably worrying too much about it, at too earlier level, perhaps.

I hope learning the piano is not quite so bad ----i'm hope

Hi Debra, just out of interest, what are the books you refer to?
Are you starting piano too? From scratch or as a re-starter?

[Jacobi]

I hope learning the piano is not quite so bad ----i'm hope

I'm not so sure, what are you supposed to do with the bow when playing piano!?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[jojo]

I'm not so sure, what are you supposed to do with the bow when playing piano!?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

well, it could be useful to the teacher, to 'poke you' with it every time you make a mistake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Hi jojo, i can well recommend reading about the different bowings, as you will see why i am a "tad" confused. There are so many!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
thanks Debra, I am not a very keen reader and will avoid reading if I can at all, besides, it doesn't seem to help that much as you are still confused about it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
jokes apart,
I really do not like reading much at all so I will stick with reading the posts here (that's how much reading I can bear) and asking questions around whenever the occasion arises (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
you are right, there is so much to read out there on most things and definitely loads on violin technique, I don't have that time to spare (yet), maybe when I retire from my full time job? (although that will be another 25 years?)

Hi Kenm, I have always been taught to listen for the "ring" with spiccato, which is off string, hence the name spiccato. It's just i have been taught that this should be done with bow wood tilted away from you, but i do read in a book that it should be played with hair flat.

Tilting away is upper string only; 'cellists and bass players tilt towards, thus making the same sort of angle with the instrument. When I learnt spiccato (on bass) from Christopher Bunting, he said nothing about tilting. I think I flatten a bit when I do it, to give greater freedom to hand and wrist, not because I think it affects the sound in itself.

I have never been taught or read about spiccato beibg done by rotating bow in hand,-------i'm not saying this is wrong ---- just not read or heard about it.

In spiccato, the point moves more than the heel, so there is an element of rotation.

Staccato is on the string --- as far as i know and have been taught. Also different types of staccato.

Staccato just means shortening the note and is not specific to strings. I don't think I'm the only person who can do it either on or off the string.

Kenm I just wanted to say:
your posts always bring lots of interesting/useful information, I have to admit sometimes a little technical for my still 'young brain' (musically and as a violin/double bass player not as in age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) but nevertheless I always like reading your posts, thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thanks.gif)