Hymns and the Visitor, Any suggestions? Options

[Barry Williams]

"There might then be a fighting chance that the Lay Reader concerned will take notice of his own PCC's decisions. And if he doesn't, the matter can be taken back to the PCC. "

Herein lies the problem. Mel could well take the matter back to the PCC, but the PCC can do absolutely nothing whatsoever about it because it has no power, standing or relevance the issue. Its decision can never have any effect.

Barry Williams

[anacrusis]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
How good to see that politics is politics, wherever it takes place...

meantime, Mel2 - many sympathies for finding yourself with the rug pulled out from under your feet, and I hope that matters improve for you.

[Swell Box]

"There might then be a fighting chance that the Lay Reader concerned will take notice of his own PCC's decisions. And if he doesn't, the matter can be taken back to the PCC. "

Herein lies the problem. Mel could well take the matter back to the PCC, but the PCC can do absolutely nothing whatsoever about it because it has no power, standing or relevance the issue. Its decision can never have any effect.

Barry Williams

Very well. So what recourse would Mel (or any other aggrieved church members) have in a situation like this? Who do they go to, and what could be done?

In the worst case, who decides whether a Lay Reader continues to be licensed to a parish?

I can remember our PCC voting to propose new Readers more than twenty years ago, but once Readers are licensed they seem to be answerable to nobody but themselves. Wardens and other PCC members can be voted out of office, but Readers are ex-officio members of the PCC, so they can turn up to PCC meetings and vote whenever they like, for as long as they like.

SB

[Barry Williams]

"There might then be a fighting chance that the Lay Reader concerned will take notice of his own PCC's decisions. And if he doesn't, the matter can be taken back to the PCC. "

Herein lies the problem. Mel could well take the matter back to the PCC, but the PCC can do absolutely nothing whatsoever about it because it has no power, standing or relevance the issue. Its decision can never have any effect.

Barry Williams

Very well. So what recourse would Mel (or any other aggrieved church members) have in a situation like this? Who do they go to, and what could be done?

In the worst case, who decides whether a Lay Reader continues to be licensed to a parish?

I can remember our PCC voting to propose new Readers more than twenty years ago, but once Readers are licensed they seem to be answerable to nobody but themselves. Wardens and other PCC members can be voted out of office, but Readers are ex-officio members of the PCC, so they can turn up to PCC meetings and vote whenever they like, for as long as they like.

SB

The only recourse is to the minister. i.e. the vicar. If the situation is really bad application could be made to the Employment Tribunal, once the internal procedures (which are required of a church as an employer) were exhausted.

The organist has no part is discussing whether or not a lay reader (actually just a 'reader') should or should not be licensed. This is only about music, the sole control of which is with the minister. The reader's wishes on music can never over ride the direction of the minister, ever.

Barry Williams

[sbhoa]

Only skimmed through this so may have missed something but isn't it usual for whoever is leading the service or preaching to choose the hymns? I'd go with the regular organist mostly having the say on tunes as they will know what is known at their church.
A late change is particularly inappropriate where there is a choir in which case it's at the very least a bit silly to change after choir practice has taken place. If there is a choir to lead then visitors are not exactly having to struggle with unfamiliar tunes on their own even if most of the regular congregation don't decided to show up to welcome them.
Then again my experience is mostly not C of E so things may be a little more relaxed.

[mel2]

I'm currently awaiting a reply to my reply to a reply, if you follow me. Email makes these things much quicker, which may or may not be a good thing.

I'm very heartened by the interest in this and voices of support. Just to clarify - because people can't always be doing with trawling back to the beginning:
1) Vicar and Mel decided on hymns for the next couple of months.

2) All well until serial hymn-alterer takes service and gives very little notice of change, disregarding work already done for forthcoming service. Makes d@mn sure no negotiation possible by having words of particularly naff hymns printed on service sheet (not normal practice).

3)Mel quite open to change in hymns if necessary for coherence in theme; would prefer not to have time and effort wasted rehearsing hymns that are then peremptorily thrown out. Is asking for a deadline for changes to be announced.

4) Currently awaiting clarification on whether Reader is granted authority here to choose hymns (an authority apparently not extended to other clergy in the Team).

I will report on the colour of the smoke coming out of the Rectory chimney when it emerges.

[Stephen Barber]

I hate to see mention of the "offender" and, even worse, the "opposition", Is this a church we're talking about?

Here are a few thoughts (they are general, not specific to this particular problem as I don't know enough about it):

An organist must have a working relationship with the Vicar at the very least. Hopefully, in time, that will turn into real partnership. Issues such as who chooses the hymns, and when, should have been discussed at the interview, before an organist taking a job. In the case of a new Vicar, there should have been a meeting with him or her, at which this and everything else will have been sorted out. Not having established responsibilities satisfactorily is bound to lead to disaster. Bear in mind that many clergy these days are very busy these days doing things they used not to have to do (and being unable to do things that used to be considered their primary function) and sorting out endless problems. Choosing hymns may not be at the top of their list of things to do.

Sticking up notices, emailing PCCs, or anyone else, is no substitute for talking. To me it is a last resort when all else has failed.

If someone tried to change the hymns on me at the last minute I would ring them up and explain that they'd already been practised. I would expect to reach a compromise, perhaps changing one or two of them (although if service sheets had been already printed I would accept that for once. Playing a hymn or two that I don't like has never done me any permanent harm, so far as I'm aware.) I would make it clear that it mustn't happen again, though. I would not have any argument about it on a Sunday morning. Anyone taking a service will be keyed up and it is a very bad time to negotiate. If a quick discussion doesn't resolve things I would leave it, and discuss it with the service taker later. If that was unsatisfactory then I'd ask to talk to the Vicar and service taker together.

I would work on the assumption that someone who did this was thoughtless rather than an enemy. If you talk to him or her you can explain why it's not fair to you to change hymns at the last minute. Emails, notices and letters, especially if going behind their back, are not likely to help the relationship you have with them.

If I was not able to discuss things with my Vicar, I would know it was time to go. It doesn't mean that I'm going to win every argument, but that we can listen to each others points of view with mutual respect. In the last resort, of course, the Vicar has the last word. Even in the choice of hymns.

I stress that these are general thoughts, not a comment on this particular posting.

[jod]

In my experience, until recently the best hymns for visitors were the traditional A+M revised stodge that would constitute the musical equivalent of treacle pudding and custard. Familiar words and tunes, aka we sang ones like these at school.

This was not just "All things bright and beautiful" and "Give me oil in my lamp" but anything including in the old Blue Songs of Praise Hymn Book - this was quite extensive and could be turned to many an occasion.

I also found that Visitor liked to hear the Organ (Church = Organ) and that the lovers of guitars and music groups were actually de-churching the casual visitor rather than welcoming them in. This is due in part because our casual visitor wants the Church of England to be part of 'Great Britain Heritage Park' along with the National Parks and Buckingham Palace.

Unfortunately the average Vicar and PCC does not see things like this! Many a robed choir and organist are more in keeping with this vision than they are. They do not see our greatest opportunity to Evangelise is to buy into the brand then preach to the masses and tie them in with a house-group or two. They are radical, and by being radical want to destroy the very thing that may keep them alive!

Mel, what is happening to you is ridiculous, how anyone can expect you to work under those circumstances is beyond me!

Canon B20 does have a get out clause - the Archdeacon, however things would have to be very wrong before the Archdeacon sides with the organist.

You are best off talking to the vicar rather than fighting a war by poster. I was, at one stage responsible for deciding which hymns were chosen for Evensong. I worked from the Lectionary and liaised with both the Vicar and the Organist. Everyone was happy including the Congregation. I always worked on three months of hymns at a time, and worked one month ahead. If an ordained member of Clergy wanted to change the hymns for any reason it was no skin off my nose. Nobody ever did as the function of every hymn was considered. The organist tried once and was over-ruled by the Vicar who specifically stated she agreed with my selection. When the Organist attempted to do the same job she could not sustain it.

Selecting hymns is an art. It requires an extensive knowledge of hymnody, the likes and dislikes of your comgregation. It requires the selector to read and inwardly digest the readings. It requires the selector to have intimate knowledge of the liturgy and know how the Hymn will function within the liturgy. It is little wonder there is a separate section of Canon Law on Church Music, because get it right and it enhances, and get it wrong and it grates so much as detract from divine worship.

[Swell Box]

I hate to see mention of the "offender" and, even worse, the "opposition", Is this a church we're talking about?

I would work on the assumption that someone who did this was thoughtless rather than an enemy. If you talk to him or her you can explain why it's not fair to you to change hymns at the last minute. Emails, notices and letters, especially if going behind their back, are not likely to help the relationship you have with them.

If I was not able to discuss things with my Vicar, I would know it was time to go. It doesn't mean that I'm going to win every argument, but that we can listen to each others points of view with mutual respect. In the last resort, of course, the Vicar has the last word. Even in the choice of hymns.

Stephen; this is all very good advice, but it only works when everybody involved respects Canon Law and those working around them.

Instead we have a situation where (from what I understand) an autocratic Lay Reader considers himself above the law, above the clergy, and above everyone else in the church. (I know because we have one here with a very similar mindset who has done immense damage over the years).

The question for me is whether to walk away, and allow such people to destroy the church that I love, or whether to stay and fight for what I know is right.

As Edmund Burke said: All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Selecting hymns is an art. It requires an extensive knowledge of hymnody, the likes and dislikes of your comgregation. It requires the selector to read and inwardly digest the readings. It requires the selector to have intimate knowledge of the liturgy and know how the Hymn will function within the liturgy.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) But it also helps if those concerned have some understanding of music, and the musical resources available in the church.

SB

[mel2]

Thanks, jod, my original question was about which hymns to choose when you know a significant number of the congregation will be new to the whole thing. Even I had forgotten this. I well remember singing the standard A+M hymns at school (although I can't remember which book it was) and not feeling culturally estranged. That's what you were supposed to sing so you sang it (and, on the whole, enjoyed it).

It seems for family services I may be asked to play songs about woolly caterpillars or some such, on a keyboard. I will do this with good grace if this is the way true religion is best served, and try and keep my doubts to myself.

I certainly don't want this to become a turf war and would like to remain on good terms with all concerned; my only problem is being on the receiving end of someone else's failure to plan ahead and keep me informed.

Any contact I have had with the vicar has been with a view to effecting an efficient method of requesting adequate notice of change, as pleasantly as possible. If I can discourage major changes just for the sake of it, that would be good too.

[Stephen Barber]

Stephen; this is all very good advice, but it only works when everybody involved respects Canon Law and those working around them.

Instead we have a situation where (from what I understand) an autocratic Lay Reader considers himself above the law, above the clergy, and above everyone else in the church. (I know because we have one here with a very similar mindset who has done immense damage over the years).

The question for me is whether to walk away, and allow such people to destroy the church that I love, or whether to stay and fight for what I know is right.
SB

I don't know what the situation is here, but if this keeps happening then a meeting between lay-reader, organist and vicar is urgently needed to resolve the problem. A discussion between organist and lay reader having presumably proved fruitless. Firmness may be required of the organist.

Does the Vicar agree that hymns should not be changed. Then that must be established in a meeting between all three. I just can't see that sending emails and formal letters hither and thither is going to make the situation better.

If the Vicar doesn't agree, then the organist either has to put up with things or leave. I personally would never want to find myself in a position where, as organist, I was working against the incumbent. (I suppose I might want to fight against things that were wrong as an ordinary member of the congregation or PCC member, provided others were in agreement.)

[Barry Williams]

"[i]Canon B20 does have a get out clause - the Archdeacon, however things would have to be very wrong before the Archdeacon sides with the organist.[i]"

The archdeacon may substitute himself for the PCC in a dismissal. That is the only way he can get involved.

The archdeacon can only 'side with the organist' if he or she declines to support the minister in dismissal of the organist in lieu of the PCC. Apart from that the archdeacon has no say in the matter whatsoever.

I must emphasise that music is solely in the hands of the minister and that there is no appeal or discussion with anyone else, ever, at any time, at all, save for the minister taking advice from the organist.

Stephen's wise approach is, of course, the best one. But if it fails, then it is the minister who must act and only the minister. There is no-one else with any power or authority in the matter of music. Not even the bishop can intervene.

If Mel cannot persuade the reader that his actions are wasting a lot of rehearsal time, then only the minister can intervene. If the music list is chosen and approved by the minister, the reader cannot alter the hymns at any time.

Barry Williams

[dotted quaver]

I'm currently awaiting a reply to my reply to a reply, if you follow me. Email makes these things much quicker, which may or may not be a good thing.

I'm very heartened by the interest in this and voices of support. Just to clarify - because people can't always be doing with trawling back to the beginning:
1) Vicar and Mel decided on hymns for the next couple of months.

if the hymns had already been decided, I would have informed the reader that there were already hymns prepared and they are the hymns which will be sung! Is there any possibility the reader wouldn't have knwn the hymns were already chosen? Even so, It's not his place to choose hymns.

Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit?

[Barry Williams]

"Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit"


This is easy. You give them a copy of Canon B20. That simply written piece of legislation makes it quite obvious where the control of the music lies.

If anyone needs to see Canon B20 send me you private email address and I will forward a copy.

Barry Williams

[Swell Box]

"Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit"


This is easy. You give them a copy of Canon B20. That simply written piece of legislation makes it quite obvious where the control of the music lies.

If anyone needs to see Canon B20 send me you private email address and I will forward a copy.

Barry Williams

Try this link Canons of the Church of England, which will download all 246 pages in PDF format. It makes a fascinating read. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SB