Flute -how To Practise Difficult Sections, Some ideas please... Options

[Andy-piano-flute]

Usually I can work out reasonably effective ways to work on difficult sections - break it down into small bits, find the important notes then work in the other notes, practise different rhythms etc but how do I work on sections where everything has to be worked on simultaneously ie fingering, articulation & breath control. Yes, I can practise it slowly but then I run out of breath & can't get through the complete phrase, I can play it fast enough so I can get through the phrase but it is then simply surviving the phrase not playing it musically.
Feeling quite defeated at the moment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) so any suggestions are welcome.

[nicki_flute]

I think it still is about practicing components separately. Say you take fingering, do it as slow as you want, and allow yourself to breathe as much as possible, this will mean that you'll get a passage far more quickly, and then the breath part will just slot into place.

I think the Inner Guide to Music might have some good suggestions, I'll look later.

Hope you're feeling a bit happier *hugs*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sarah-flute]

I think you need to give yourself a chance to work on one bit at a time - work on each "problem area" separately. For example, if breathe control is a problem, work just on where you can take breaths and how long those breaths need to be, and for example practice playing notes as long as your breaths need to be so you can be confident you have that requisite breathe control. And then maybe work on the fingerings slowly in small chunks, or practice the necessary articulations but on a scale or only on one note. Make any sense?

What is the piece?

[Andy-piano-flute]

I think you need to give yourself a chance to work on one bit at a time - work on each "problem area" separately. For example, if breathe control is a problem, work just on where you can take breaths and how long those breaths need to be,

That's what I'd normally do -but in this section you can't breathe- at all- only the 1 breath before you start. I've practised/ am practising playing the requisite number of bars of semiquavers simply as scales which is possible (just) but once I start playing the notes as written I seem to use more air (almost out of panic that I won't be able to get through the entire phrase)

And then maybe work on the fingerings slowly in small chunks, or practice the necessary articulations but on a scale or only on one note. Make any sense?

Can do the fingerings / play the right articulation at a fairly reasonable speed but am starting to get a feeling of dread everytime I get to that section & then it all falls apart... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) As for playing it musically & playing a crescendo throughout the phrase- (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) )

[nicki_flute]

Lift the passage and play it as if it were a cadenza (not in the real thing of course), would that help?

[snuglivixen]

I'd practice only the hard section seperately and not try it all together until I got it solid.

(What is a cadenza exactly Nicki? Is that the same as what I said or something totally different? )

[nicki_flute]

I'd practice only the hard section seperately and not try it all together until I got it solid.

(What is a cadenza exactly Nicki? Is that the same as what I said or something totally different? )

No, a cadenza (there is one in Andante in C by the way) is where it is just the soloist and they show their musicianship, and it is usually not strictly in time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sarah-flute]

I think you need to give yourself a chance to work on one bit at a time - work on each "problem area" separately. For example, if breathe control is a problem, work just on where you can take breaths and how long those breaths need to be,

That's what I'd normally do -but in this section you can't breathe- at all- only the 1 breath before you start. I've practised/ am practising playing the requisite number of bars of semiquavers simply as scales which is possible (just) but once I start playing the notes as written I seem to use more air (almost out of panic that I won't be able to get through the entire phrase)

Hmm. Have you tried working on the semis just as really small chunks, get them really solid, then start sticking them together? If you can reassure your brain that you can play it, by learning them till they're more fluent and faster than they need to be, then maybe panic won't set in so much, which will help with the breathing scenario. If you can't get through the whole thing in one breath at the moment, you need to stick to doing what you CAN do and getting that better and better - ie small chunks, or splurts, getting the separate sections really fluent. Practice is all about doing something you're able to do by direct effort in order to get to be able to do the think you can't yet do by direct effort: ie, you're not going to break this passage by just trying really hard, you need to find other ways of tackling it. By doing what you CAN do, ie breaking it down into small chunks and aiming to get each chunk ridiculously fluent, you are working towards getting the whole thing together. To use an analogy, you wouldn't train to run a marathon by starting off running 26 miles or by just turning up on the day and trying really hard... you would work your way up to it. I think you need to be rather patient with yourself on this one! *hug*

Can do the fingerings / play the right articulation at a fairly reasonable speed but am starting to get a feeling of dread everytime I get to that section & then it all falls apart... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) As for playing it musically & playing a crescendo throughout the phrase- (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) )

Yes, I know that one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) it's horrible when all you can think is "Oh I can't do this bit, I can't do this bit" and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again - I would suggest that "trying really hard" - direct effort - is not working for you here. It doesn't seem like it's actual inability to play the passage (from what you have said, essentially you can play it), more that it's just that little bit beyond where you have got it and that the mental block is kicking in and you're ending up feeling "I can't play this, it's always going to beat me".

You need to find ways of tackling it by indirect effort. My best suggestion is that you start in small chunks and make sure you know it insanely well - not just well enough, but better than you need... make sure each small chunk is fluent and effortless at a higher speed than you need. Then practice the joins, then start joining chunks... if you can work in a way that gives you success and where you see your work coming to something, it will also help with the confidence levels. If at any stage you find you're panicking or you have got a touch too far or too fast, go back and make sure it's really solid a touch slower or a little smaller chunk at a time.

I strongly suggest that you don't keep trying to play it all the way through at speed and in one breath - because the fact that this isn't working and is making you dread it each time you play is just reinforcing the "I can't do it" thing.

Am I making any sense? Hope so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) I think if you can be patient with yourself and start from a position of strength (you know the fingerings and articulation, and I bet you can play it in reasonable chunks if you can just about manage the whole thing) you will regain a bit of confidence about actually playing the whole thing.

Which piece is it?

[andante_in_c]

I feel like adding a line to my signature - the only Forum member to contain a cadenza. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not much advice, Andrea, as you've already had a lot from the others, but lots of sympathy because I have this problem all the time. The only times I can solve it are when I really relax, play from my feet, concentrate on 'squeezing from the bottom of the tube' and just go for it. The slightest bit of tension and it collapses. It happens more often in lessons than anything, usually when I've told Nick I can't possibly play that bit on one breath. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[sarah-flute]

I feel like adding a line to my signature - the only Forum member to contain a cadenza. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I always play really badly in front of my teacher (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) - one of the reasons I have been so lazy in arranging another lesson is that I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally want to be able to play reasonably well for her (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[kerioboe]

Play from the end backwards.

Play the last bar of the passage you are finding difficult. When you can do this perfectly, play the second last bar and the last bar. When you have perfected these, play the last three bars and so on until you are playing the whole passage. It is important not to rush the process (do it over several days). For me (when I have the patience to do it properly) it works every time. You can even do it for a whole piece.

My piano teacher first taught me this trick but it actually works even better on a wood-wind instrument. The advantages are:
1) It gradually builds up your stamina and solves the breathing problem but it does so in a more positive way than playing from the beginning since you always play right to the end of the passage.
2) You build up confidence to tackle the passage because you know you can play perfectly everything that's still to come.

Good luck!

[Andy-piano-flute]

Play from the end backwards.

Good luck!

Thanks for reminding me. I did try this a while ago & then got diverted onto other pieces. Anyway have gone back to playing from the end of the section. It's 8 bars of semiquavers with a quaver at either end & I can reliably play the last 7 bars (& a quaver) of it & quite often the last 7 bars & 5 semiquavers, but the remaining 3 semiquavers seem to be 3 too many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But I will keep working at it..
PS Sarah; it is the Bach sonata in E major -allegro- bar 65 +.

[nicki_flute]

Play from the end backwards.

Good luck!

Thanks for reminding me. I did try this a while ago & then got diverted onto other pieces. Anyway have gone back to playing from the end of the section. It's 8 bars of semiquavers with a quaver at either end & I can reliably play the last 7 bars (& a quaver) of it & quite often the last 7 bars & 5 semiquavers, but the remaining 3 semiquavers seem to be 3 too many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But I will keep working at it..
PS Sarah; it is the Bach sonata in E major -allegro- bar 65 +.

I have the same problem with that - I can't not breathe for that long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sarah-flute]

Thanks for reminding me. I did try this a while ago & then got diverted onto other pieces. Anyway have gone back to playing from the end of the section. It's 8 bars of semiquavers with a quaver at either end & I can reliably play the last 7 bars (& a quaver) of it & quite often the last 7 bars & 5 semiquavers, but the remaining 3 semiquavers seem to be 3 too many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Infuriating! Sounds like you're doing a good job though - you will get there. I do know what you mean about feeling you need more breaths through panic...

PS Sarah; it is the Bach sonata in E major -allegro- bar 65 +.

Ok (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LaFluteDePan]

I just got finished with a piece where I had the same problem. If you know Dahl's Variations on a Swedish Folktune, Var. VII, you'd know what I was talking about.

It's madness, at a distance the page looks black with ink.

Well, it was supposed to go at quarter notre=144, but I played just that section at sixty. When I got it perfect, I went to sixty one, then sixty two, etc. By the time I reached 144, I was able to play it perfectly.