How to Practise Better Options

[jojo]

sorry to 'butt in' everyone....

I have been reading with GREAT interest everyone's post in this thread and I was so happy that the original posting of the article I had found had 'sparked' this great thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I hope this thread will 'live' for a long time to come, you are all feeding into it such inspiring experiences/thoughts and opinions/information, thank you, I am learning a lot from it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/party1.gif)

I also have a BREAKTHROUGH to share with you all!

I have been 'struggling' for 2 and a half years now with trying to achieve a 'nice' and 'proper' STACCATO bowing with my violin bow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I would like one day to play this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mag2mc5Vva0...mp;feature=fvwp

my teacher 2 and a half years ago 'assigned' to me this etude: Kreutzer n4 (violinists will know it), I have been practicing it at first (in my first 18 months) quite religiously almost every day but with no real progress, not being able to achieve much at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

now I have been getting a little 'enough is enough' I really want to get this done! especially as I'd like to learn this piece (above link) and the main block would be the staccato of course!!!

I have been watching the above video LIKE AN EAGLE, I thought Master Heifetz MUST be able to teach me a few things right? even though he can't 'talk to me'

I noticed that he does something different with his DOWN staccato, when he does a down staccato his bow hold changes, he only holds his bow with his thumb and the index finger....mmmmhhhhh and the hand is open, the middle finger, ring finger and pinkie are straight and away from the stick....but seem very relaxed, the bow also....the wooden part is now tilted TOWARDS HIM (normally us violinists have this tilted slightly AWAY from us) AND finally he (on purpose) will draw the bow WONKY with the tip facing away from him and the frog end towards him...mmmmhhhh why does he do that? I thought to myself..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (think think jojo.....)

then.....I read on the top of the page from Kreutzer 4...it says 'The staccato must be practiced very slowly to begin with, detaching all notes with a LOOSE wrist, so that the bow DOES NOT quit the string. This is a sure way to learn this style of bowing well'.

Then I went back to master Heifetz..... looked at him with an eagle eye again....you can't really see him moving his wrist or his hand when he does staccato, it's like he's drawing a straight bow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) that's how relaxed his bowing arm/hand/wrist is!!!

So then I went to practice, I could not achieve any good results.....Kreutzer 4 was taking my concentration away too much from everything else!

SO I thought: I have to go RIGHT DOWN TO THE BASICS, take away this kreutzer 4 stuff now!

So I decided to do it on OPEN STRINGS! take away the left hand, this is A BOWING PROBLEM/TRAINING ISSUE RIGHT? it's my BOWING ARM/HAND/WRIST I have to train, NOT my left hand for now. I have to teach my right arm/hand/wrist which muscles to 'tweak' to get the staccato going, once I get that sussed out then I can think of doing kreutzer 4!!!

I went onto open strings and LO AND BEHOLD after 10 MINUTES MAGIC!!! for the first time in TWO AND A HALF YEARS I could do STACCATO A LA HEIFETZ! ok (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) not as good as Master Heifetz, I will never be anywhere near him, but I could do reasonably fast staccato with only the odd slip up on open strings.

AND by the way: I found out WHY Master Heifetz does what he does with his down-bow staccato, down bow staccato is a lot more 'tricky/difficult' than up-bow staccato (I remember my teacher telling me so and telling me how many violinists will try and 'avoid it'), well, doing it the way that Heifetz does it really really helps! having the bow with the wood part tilted towards you and drawing it 'wonky' so that the frog end comes towards your body, gripping the bow just with the thumb and index finger and keeping the rest of the fingers away from the stick and open and relaxed, helps the bow to have a certain 'grip' on the strings that you can't have in any other way, if you don't do this you have to put too much pressure on the bow and your staccato sounds too harsh/gritty or does not come out as 'even' or as effortlessly I have found out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It was very difficult on the G string and it didn't sound so nice there so that will need a lot more practice, but I FINALLY CRACKED IT!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif)

Now I want to do this on open strings daily for at least a couple of weeks before I attempt to use the left hand with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/party1.gif)

thank you for all your posts and keep them coming (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Clarimoo]

Wonderful, Jojo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Inspirational post.

[corenfa]

The reason I like this thread is that reading about non-pianists' experience with practising - the kind of things they look out for - has actually been very helpful to me, because it has helped me recognise some things that I can translate into piano playing.

From schraeubchen's earlier post, I realised that the fear of high notes translates for me to fear of octaves, which is a psychological block.

From jojo's post, while I didn't instinctively understand most of the specifics (since I have never been a string player), I realise that often we have to identify the exact physical thing that we have to work on to get something right. I don't fully understand the nuances of up-bow and down-bow and how to tilt your bow to achieve different things -- but I do understand that just a slight physical change can have big effects. For me tonight it was figuring out that I have to lean slightly to the left when playing big octave things in the right hand, because my upper half is in the way otherwise. It isn't a huge movement, and should be barely perceptible to the audience if at all (I really don't want to make anyone seasick), but it allows much greater freedom for right wrist.

I noticed that all of the passages I have difficulty with in the left hand have to do with lack of control in the 3rd, 4tf, 5th fingers. So - nothing for it - I shall have to spend some time exercising only these fingers, so I shall spend 5-10 minutes a day playing chromatic scales just with those fingers.

One of the pieces that's manifesting this problem is the Bach C# major prelude from Book 1 of Well-Tempered Clavier. It has a particular semiquaver motif repeated in alternate hands. Of course, I can play it easily in the right hand but the left hand is all over the place. Tonight I tried to watch both hands while I played this, and I find that my left hand is way off centre when playing the equivalent passage. I know that lack of 3/4/5 finger strength is partly responsible for it sounding rubbish, but I think this off-centredness is too.

[jojo]

The reason I like this thread is that reading about non-pianists' experience with practising - the kind of things they look out for - has actually been very helpful to me, because it has helped me recognise some things that I can translate into piano playing.

From schraeubchen's earlier post, I realised that the fear of high notes translates for me to fear of octaves, which is a psychological block.

From jojo's post, while I didn't instinctively understand most of the specifics (since I have never been a string player), I realise that often we have to identify the exact physical thing that we have to work on to get something right.

that's good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

corenfa,
do you often or ever find yourself watching the 'great pianists' how they move and how they use their body/hands/arms/fingers/legs/feet and actually then find yourself trying the same thing to see if it helps you correct or achieve anything in your playing and has it ever helped you?

like it has with me tonight?

ps I know a little of it was also luck but I was so ASTONISHED how after 2 and a half years of hitting a wall all of a sudden it just 'clicked' just by analysing a video of a great master! (and doing some 'mindful practice' of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif))

[corenfa]

...

corenfa,
do you often or ever find yourself watching the 'great pianists' how they move and how they use their body/hands/arms/fingers/legs/feet and actually then find yourself trying the same thing to see if it helps you correct or achieve anything in your playing and has it ever helped you?

like it has with me tonight?

ps I know a little of it was also luck but I was so ASTONISHED how after 2 and a half years of hitting a wall all of a sudden it just 'clicked' just by analysing a video of a great master! (and doing some 'mindful practice' of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif))

I have not, but I think perhaps I ought to consider it now! I have thought about it before but didn't bother because I know that everyone's physiology is different- most pianists are bigger than me and I was not sure that technique would carry over. I'm also a bit worried that I would try to imitate someone else's technique rather than discovering my own. My horn teacher taught me that it is better to discover how to do things for myself precisely because physiology differs so much between individuals.

However, it is clear that one part of the discovery can be to see how other people do it. So it is definitely something I will consider now.

ps I know a little of it was also luck but I was so ASTONISHED how after 2 and a half years of hitting a wall all of a sudden it just 'clicked' just by analysing a video of a great master! (and doing some 'mindful practice' of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif))

Hmm I am not so sure I believe in luck in this kind of thing! I think that you were mentally receptive and observant when you were watching the video - so you were able to pick this up - you figured, he MUST be doing something "special" so you tried to watch for it.

Luck's when you buy a lottery ticket and win first prize (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jojo]

I have not, but I think perhaps I ought to consider it now! I have thought about it before but didn't bother because I know that everyone's physiology is different- most pianists are bigger than me and I was not sure that technique would carry over. I'm also a bit worried that I would try to imitate someone else's technique rather than discovering my own. My horn teacher taught me that it is better to discover how to do things for myself precisely because physiology differs so much between individuals.

However, it is clear that one part of the discovery can be to see how other people do it. So it is definitely something I will consider now.

ps I know a little of it was also luck but I was so ASTONISHED how after 2 and a half years of hitting a wall all of a sudden it just 'clicked' just by analysing a video of a great master! (and doing some 'mindful practice' of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif))

Hmm I am not so sure I believe in luck in this kind of thing! I think that you were mentally receptive and observant when you were watching the video - so you were able to pick this up - you figured, he MUST be doing something "special" so you tried to watch for it.

Luck's when you buy a lottery ticket and win first prize (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, thinking about it I think you are right.....about different bodies and how you have to discover 'your own technique' BUT ON THE PIANO or the HORN. I don't think this would apply to the violin 'entirely' anyway.

Let's explain...the piano is a 'fixed' instrument, the keys and the pedals 'do not move', so is the horn, ok you 'press' the keys and the pedals but they do not go anywhere.....

with the violin it is totally different, the bow goes all over the place, you can apply a lot more pressure to it then you can do to a key on the piano, well, I mean in a different way, you can put pressure to a bow in different directions, not just downwards anyway....

the violin itself moves on many different axis too! and your fingers can go in a million different places in so many different ways, they can pluck and press on strings, on the piano you press the keys, you press them softly or hard but you don't pluck the keys and the keys will not 'move' from their place.

so yes, I think you are right, there's not much point in watching a pianist 'move', maybe you can learn a few things yes, but not as many as you can by watching a violinist....I think....it is more to do with your body rather than the way you handle the instrument.

and about the luck I think you are right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

[schraeubchen]

Jojo, congratulations. What a big relief.

I also hope this thread will continue a long time. From my side I am willing to keep it up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jojo]

Jojo, congratulations. What a big relief.

I also hope this thread will continue a long time. From my side I am willing to keep it up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thank you Schraeubchen, now I just can't wait for the days to come by and practice my new found skill of fast staccato bowing so that I can refine it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I now feel like a 'grown up' violinist (finally)!!

and a step closer to be able to learn that piece one day soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/party1.gif)

[schraeubchen]

Jojo, congratulations. What a big relief.

I also hope this thread will continue a long time. From my side I am willing to keep it up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thank you Schraeubchen, now I just can't wait for the days to come by and practice my new found skill of fast staccato bowing so that I can refine it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I now feel like a 'grown up' violinist (finally)!!

and a step closer to be able to learn that piece one day soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/party1.gif)

Now you've already taken the first step to learn the piece and you can be sure to manage it one day.

I love this thread, because it is a good way to learn a lot about the difficulties one can find in playing a special instrument and I get a better understanding of this.

[Tassimo]

I love this thread, because it is a good way to learn a lot about the difficulties one can find in playing a special instrument and I get a better understanding of this.

My thoughts exactly. We all have the same problems at one point or another and it is good to share practice techniques to try and overcome them.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/niceThread.gif)

[jod]

I don't know about anyone else but my pianists (and me) found yesterday's record breaking temperatures caused all sorts of problems for practising. For us it was not instruments going out of tune wildly (something I remember very clearly from my oboe days). It was sticky fingers and foggy brains.

Anyone else encounter problems?

[Violin Hero]

I don't know about anyone else but my pianists (and me) found yesterday's record breaking temperatures caused all sorts of problems for practising. For us it was not instruments going out of tune wildly (something I remember very clearly from my oboe days). It was sticky fingers and foggy brains.

Anyone else encounter problems?

I found practice really hard yesterday. My fingers were getting hot and sticky all the time, which made getting to the right notes at the right time hard. Tuning was not too bad.

[schraeubchen]

I didn't practice at all yesterday (bent my head in shame). But I do know the problem of sweating underneath my mouth if it is this hot. Not easy to find my embouchure then.

[Sunrise]

I didn't practice at all yesterday (bent my head in shame). But I do know the problem of sweating underneath my mouth if it is this hot. Not easy to find my embouchure then.

LOL the heat you are all experiencing is what we have had most days for a while now in Gib - and yes, flute/pic embrouchure gets a bit slippy!! But can't do anything about it when on parade, we'd get told for wiping our lip! We have a parade in full sun at 12 on Sat - going to be interesting...

[schraeubchen]

LOL the heat you are all experiencing is what we have had most days for a while now in Gib - and yes, flute/pic embrouchure gets a bit slippy!! But can't do anything about it when on parade, we'd get told for wiping our lip! We have a parade in full sun at 12 on Sat - going to be interesting...

LOL, wishing you not too much "aqua planing" an a bit wind for it. My outside thermometer says 40 degree celsius (but that's in direct sun).