Posh Britain's Got Talent (BBC Young Musician) Options

[Chris H]

This is my own experience. My son went to an advice audition at conservatoiire and was told that he HAD to do the following things to have any chance of getting into a conservatoire, because it is so competitive:

1. Get a new teacher - we were told who to go to. The teacher is not very local to us, and we have to travel.
2. Play in competitions. These start off at a local level, but if you keep winning you get though to the rounds that involve a lot of travelling. We had to pay for two accompanists, and travel to rehearse with one of them.
3. Audition for a national ensemble - wasn't expecting son to get in, but he did and it involved a lot of expense.
4. Go on a Summer course run by the tutor giving the advice audition
5. Learn jazz and play in advanced ensembles - none in local area, have to travel to those too.
6. Was told to get a new instrument because the old one was irrevocably out of tune.
7. Go to concerts - have to travel to those, too.

Each piece of music costs over ?20 each. Auditions at conservatoires cost at least ?50 each, and you have to get to them. There were two auditions on adjacent days and had to stay overnight in London.

We had no choice in all this - it is what we were told was necessary. If we could have done things in a cheaper way we would have done. I don't know what planet you are on Seer Green, but you are sadly mistaken if you think that my son could have got into conservatoire with the sort of input you are suggesting. I used to believe that - then he went to the advice audition and I realised I was sadly deluded.

And what about when things are not working right, Seer Green? Like when the school peri is teaching an instrument they are not qualified to teach?

[Seer_Green]

We had no choice in all this - it is what we were told was necessary. If we could have done things in a cheaper way we would have done. I don't know what planet you are on Seer Green, but you are sadly mistaken if you think that my son could have got into conservatoire with the sort of input you are suggesting.

Actually, I'm on this planet. I have known plenty of people who've gone on to conservatoires with little, if any of the things on your list. They've come from all sorts of backgrounds (including financial) and have done very well, many now working professionally in the music business. I've known equally as many who've been very successful who haven't been to conservatoires, and in some cases, have had very little formal training at all. No doubt the things on your list are useful - they'd be useful for any musician - but I know it's not as clear cut as saying "you won't get in unless you do X, Y and Z on the list". That is, after all, your experience and what you've been told. No doubt others have been told the same, but there'll be equally as many who've had entirely different experiences.

We hear on these forums about many bad experiences of peri teaching - they happen, and I've come across many, many terrible situations over the past 11 years. I have also come across superb peri teaching, but we're not likely to hear about that are we? There's no reason why with a good teacher, whether that be peri or private, pupils cannot achieve high levels of musical ability; it's totally unfair for anyone to suggest that if you have peri lessons, you can't get anywhere.

I'm still not sure that I can see why achieving a high level of ability in classical music costs more than anything else? Dance, sport etc...and for that matter, any professional occupation.

[Chris H]

How can people afford instruments, sheet music etc? The ABRSM exams themselves are expensive! I'm not saying that people without money can't progress, but it's so much harder. My son has a friend who is struggling to buy a decent instrument and to afford the lessons. He has got into music college, but with financial help from school and earning money from a part time job to pay for lessons.

Of course there are excellent peris - I have a friend who is a peri who went to RCM, and I know he's an excellent teacher.

I think it's dangerous to suggest that people could make do - we thought that we could make do, but that just wasn't good enough, and actually my son should have started doing all of those things after getting grade 8 at sixteen. Other people may be lucky enough to have excellent teachers. Technique isn't examinined by ABRSM and it is perfectly possible to get excellent marks for pieces on musicality alone.

[Chris H]

How many classical soloists have you met with little or no formal training, Seer Green? How many of the teens on Young Musician of the Year have little or no formal training?

[barncottagecat]

To become a young musician of sufficient calibre to get to YMY of course requires an awful lot of personal sacrifice and expense for most parents - the number of lessons required usually means that a specialist music school fits the bill, and whilst grants are available these don't cover absolutely everything, so money must be required somewhere along the line. But the same goes for anything individually taught. So it is extremely difficult for those on a low income to succeed in the field of many arts.

But do they want to? My in-laws, nor their friends or extended family have never, any of them, had any exposure to, and consequently have little interest in classical music, which is really what we are talking about. We offered to pay for music tuition for our niece and nephew, and neither of them would entertain the idea- just not the done thing on a council estate in Birmingham. Not cool, so there are a lot more complicated issues to deal with here - how do you interest half a nation in Mozart, Mendelssohn and Mahler when they aint bovvered?

Incidentally before I am shot down in flames, of course there are exceptions - one of my dearest friends used to be a barman in a pub in Byker Grove, and started listening to classical music when one day quite by chance he heard a traviata aria - he also took himself off to college and got a phd so it can occur, just not often!

[VH2]

But do they want to? My in-laws, nor their friends or extended family have never, any of them, had any exposure to, and consequently have little interest in classical music, which is really what we are talking about. We offered to pay for music tuition for our niece and nephew, and neither of them would entertain the idea- just not the done thing on a council estate in Birmingham. Not cool, so there are a lot more complicated issues to deal with here - how do you interest half a nation in Mozart, Mendelssohn and Mahler when they aint bovvered?

I think that is very sad.

It may (or not, I am not getting into that argument) cost a lot of money to become an outstanding classical performer, but it does not cost a fortune to enjoy classical music. Classical CDs generally cost no more than pop and rock CDs (usually less), classical recitals tend to be bargains compared to those by popular artists, and there is plenty of free classical music on radio, cable TV, and in free concerts.

It is a shame that millions of people will go through the whole of their lives without enjoying this part of our heritage.

[Ayshah]

This is my own experience. My son went to an advice audition at conservatoiire and was told that he HAD to do the following things to have any chance of getting into a conservatoire, because it is so competitive:

1. Get a new teacher - we were told who to go to. The teacher is not very local to us, and we have to travel.
2. Play in competitions. These start off at a local level, but if you keep winning you get though to the rounds that involve a lot of travelling. We had to pay for two accompanists, and travel to rehearse with one of them.
3. Audition for a national ensemble - wasn't expecting son to get in, but he did and it involved a lot of expense.
4. Go on a Summer course run by the tutor giving the advice audition
5. Learn jazz and play in advanced ensembles - none in local area, have to travel to those too.
6. Was told to get a new instrument because the old one was irrevocably out of tune.
7. Go to concerts - have to travel to those, too.

Am floored to read the above "requirements".

With two children at JDs and the last left 2 years ago, at my No 1 daughter's consultation, absolutely no one said any of those 7 items you list! We would have run a mile!

In fact eldest daughter went in with singing first and had only 4 one to one singing lessons with someone who had just started her music degree. Her flute teacher thought we were mad to even try to get into a JD, but took all the kudos once she was offered a place. Once in the JD there were loads of suggestions for summer courses, we picked the cheapest or one that had a generous bursary but never entered for competitions. Both my girls did Jazz but thats because our home is full of Jazz and they wanted to be in the school jazz orchestra as it was reputed to be much more fun! New instruments were encouraged but No1 daughter used the school instrument all the way though and bought her own with her first pay check. No 3 daughter got a massive grant for her sax but had to sell her old one to complete the funding. National ensembles were not of interest as they were too many rehearsals in the holidays. No 3 daughter was in the London Schools Symphony Orchestra but again she found the inner competitive nature a pain and she was happy to sit at the back of the violas for nearly 3 years on a Benslow loaned instrument. Concerts have been part of our life from the begining and the kids are very good at getting cut price tickets - plus going to the Freebies at the conservatoires is a must.

I am not saying it didnt cost, yes it did, but we were not harassed by the tutors in any way to get or do something. I think we just cut some corners at home and both OH and I took up home tuition and we took lodgers. The girls all had babysitting jobs and paid for much of the little bits like reeds, strings, scores etc. In turn once my eldest had graduated and become the "professional" she would tutor her younger sister (solfege!)

However I do think that its what you start out wanting to achieve that makes a difference to the journey and for my husband and I, it was always that the children appreciated classical and jazz music, working in a team (the orchestra or band) coupled with the pleasure of being able to play an instrument competently. That there are two professional musicians in our family still surprises us. That the other two can still play occasionaly is a shock!

Ye we invest time money etc into supporting our childrens interest in a conservative music career, but when I look at the time, money, academy courses, match tickets, etc that my friend has put into her son's football career its still way beyond what we put in I can assure you. Someone needs to actually put pen to paper and to a comparative sheet for other activities that children indulge in, there would be a few surprises I'm sure.

[andante]

Ayshah you hardly sound like the typical unmusical family. Also you live in London with concerts freely available. We never go to concerts, there aren't any round here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Your children were already familiar with Jazz. Chris's son was auditioning on (classical) sax and not familiar with it to any great extent. Your children had attended JD, which fills a lot of the gaps Chris mentions. Her son had ONLY had school peri lessons and was using an out of tune instrument. Yours were using a loan instrument from Benslow. The list Chris was given was for her son a year before auditioning for senior conservatoire, having had none of those experiences.

(Chris feel free to correct me if I have misstated the facts)

[Ayshah]

Ayshah you hardly sound like the typical unmusical family. Also you live in London with concerts freely available. We never go to concerts, there aren't any round here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Your children were already familiar with Jazz. Chris's son was auditioning on (classical) sax and not familiar with it to any great extent. Your children had attended JD, which fills a lot of the gaps Chris mentions. Her son had ONLY had school peri lessons and was using an out of tune instrument. Yours were using a loan instrument from Benslow. The list Chris was given was for her son a year before auditioning for senior conservatoire, having had none of those experiences.

(Chris feel free to correct me if I have misstated the facts)

Hmm I missed the point about it being a consultation for senior Conservatoire, thought it might have been for a JD. I still consider myself unmusical but an excellent researcher getting loads of info from these forums. I also accept some of what you write, my husband is a self taught musician, from a dreadful inner London council estate with no instruments or access to jazz or classical in his parental home, he went into science to make a living and THAT was considere elitist! I have g3 piano from the dark ages. Neither of us particiated in music activities as young people, but I came from a home where my father is a classical music buff - he in turn was denied the opportunity to learn an instrument - and quite upset that none of us were that way inclined. I grew up out of London but my Dad would packus all into the Hillman Hunter, to the annual summer outing - the Proms at RAH, with tupperware boxes of sandwiches, so eventually it seeped in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I totally understand the issues with absolutely dreadful instruments. My three eldest used extremely poor quality school instruments throughout their school time. The youngest first sax was out of tune, dented and really poor quality and she didnt get a new one until we got external funding for it. Her viola was again a poor quality school instrument but her peri teacher worked hard to get her a loaned one from Benslow. I recognise that concerts out of London and the main cities are few and far between its not just the price of tickets,children in the country have to be ferried there and back. But I have to say, when on holiday we have always managed to find a concert in a church, that has been a delightful break from sitting in a tent in a field (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I stand by what I am saying that if I turned up with my child for a consultation and the tutor gave us such a list I would not be particularly inclined to go any further. Kudos to Chris for actioning the list and clearly the consultation recognised the talent in her son. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Chris H]

Thank you, Ayshah. No he didn't go to a JD, just music centre and is playing classical sax. His friend has got into a jazz course on a terrible beginner's instrument, but they don't seem as fussy for jazz. The conservatoire tutor said the applicants from our area are never as good as they could be because of the distances involved to access JDs and tuition.

We once had a classical saxiphonist play at our local church, and once at our local cathedral - otherwise we have to travel miles!

[Seer_Green]

How many classical soloists have you met with little or no formal training, Seer Green? How many of the teens on Young Musician of the Year have little or no formal training?

Well, if you take my best friend at school: he's now an international soloist, he sings with a professional choir which tours all over the world and their CD releases are stacking up. He makes a lot of money from it. He didn't take up any formal music training until he left university at 22. Up until then, he'd dabbled in school choirs, a bit of accompanying etc. but that was it. He didn't study any instruments, he didn't do GCSE music, he didn't do A Level music, he didn't do music at uni, and he hasn't got a grade or diploma to his name. Now, this is an extreme example, but it shows that you can get there without all the training and activities you mention. You're experience is that you've been told your child needs to do X, Y and Z in order to get 'there'. That's fine - I don't have a problem with that. But, there are plenty of others who've taken entirely different routes to achieve a similar outcome.

[VH2]

How many classical soloists have you met with little or no formal training, Seer Green? How many of the teens on Young Musician of the Year have little or no formal training?

Well, if you take my best friend at school: he's now an international soloist, he sings with a professional choir which tours all over the world and their CD releases are stacking up. He makes a lot of money from it. He didn't take up any formal music training until he left university at 22. Up until then, he'd dabbled in school choirs, a bit of accompanying etc. but that was it. He didn't study any instruments, he didn't do GCSE music, he didn't do A Level music, he didn't do music at uni, and he hasn't got a grade or diploma to his name. Now, this is an extreme example, but it shows that you can get there without all the training and activities you mention. You're experience is that you've been told your child needs to do X, Y and Z in order to get 'there'. That's fine - I don't have a problem with that. But, there are plenty of others who've taken entirely different routes to achieve a similar outcome.

And Paul McCartney, with a similar lack of conventional training, is now a billionaire.

[Claudia's Mum]

I think singing is very different to playing an instrument.

[Ayshah]

How many classical soloists have you met with little or no formal training, Seer Green? How many of the teens on Young Musician of the Year have little or no formal training?

Well, if you take my best friend at school: he's now an international soloist, he sings with a professional choir which tours all over the world and their CD releases are stacking up. He makes a lot of money from it. He didn't take up any formal music training until he left university at 22. Up until then, he'd dabbled in school choirs, a bit of accompanying etc. but that was it. He didn't study any instruments, he didn't do GCSE music, he didn't do A Level music, he didn't do music at uni, and he hasn't got a grade or diploma to his name. Now, this is an extreme example, but it shows that you can get there without all the training and activities you mention. You're experience is that you've been told your child needs to do X, Y and Z in order to get 'there'. That's fine - I don't have a problem with that. But, there are plenty of others who've taken entirely different routes to achieve a similar outcome.

Aw now now be fair thats such a one off example and he is a SINGER! I mean Shirley Bassey cant read a note of music and is a multi millionaire. (mind you she still has vocal tuition) The absolute vast majority will do the gcse, A level, music exam route if they want to be professional instrument performers. And just when did your friend decide he wanted to be a professional musician?

We are talking about our children in the 21st c, supporting them in trying to achieve goals that they are aware of now. If the consultation had said to Chris "your son is hopeless an hasnt a chance in H**!" i.e Simon Cowell type of stuff, then she would have looked at it differently I am sure. I would have been gobsmacked and sat there with my mouth open, but in fact its a challenge to aim for. Times have changed and as parents we want to support our child's career choice, in fact we are delighted that they actually have some idea what they want to do in their future life so we go out spend money (that we generally dont have), research and support them.

Look at it like this, if my music playing/loving daughter came home and said "this music is all ###### I want to play for Arsenal Ladies first team", I would (after a mental breakdown of fury) simply say "ok lets see how you can do that, how much are a pair of football boots" Because the very fact that we are on this Forum shows that we are supportive parents.

Yes sadly some children dont have that support or encouragement and classical music escapes their lives. However if the best teachers are at the Conservatoires then surely you would aim to be taught by the best and work hard to get into same. Initially I was a bit daunted by Conservatoires (am always terrified by competitiveness) but you appreciate the fact that your children are learning the best from the best and it will be with them for life and they too will eventually pass the skills on to the next generation.

My own husband is also self-taught and actually quite good an ddoes play in a jazz band but he never had any ambition to be a professional and my daughter is a professional singer, 3 years at a JD and four at Senior Conservatoire - so I am not having a go a singers.

So I congratulate your friend on his successes without doubt it really is an absolutely rarity, but please the rest of us are run of the mill music parents, struggling to do it the traditional way; good teacher, better teacher, the best teacher, Conservatoire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Chris H]

Hear hear! I thought your example would turn out to be a singer, Seer Green (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)