young children in adult amateur orchestras, how to manage "precocious" children Options

[karslima]

At my local amateur orchestra a young girl who is a good musician, and obviously bright, sits close to me in my section. The thing is that she keeps commenting on how she feels - tired, bored, excited etc and it's really disruptive. I try to calm her down and occasionally tell her to keep quiet, but it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference. Once when her mum came to pick her up, she remarked that she was glad to see that I was there, which implied to me that she thought I would look after her daughter.

What is the best way to handle this? Is it the responsibility of those of us in the section to sort out these problems, or is it up to the conductor?

[sbhoa]

If she holds up rehearsal with talking it's up to the conductor.
She's only really as much your responsibility in the same way as an adult who may need support that you are able to give with playing. In our orchestra the less experienced ask the more experienced when they aren't sure of things.
If there are children in the orchestra who are not chaperoned there should be a child protection policy too.

[owainsutton]

If there are children in the orchestra who are not chaperoned there should be a child protection policy too.

Absolutely.

In any case, if a child can't behave with an adult level of concentration, they shouldn't be involved.

[violinlove]

In any case, if a child can't behave with an adult level of concentration, they shouldn't be involved.

That's what I think too.
How old is the child anyway?
Obviously sitting quietly in orchestra and concentrating in orchestra is something we have all had to learn and it isn't always easy even as an adult. (There can also be annoying adults in amateur orchestras too...) Most of us have learned this through school orchestras or youth orchestras before being let loose in adult orchestras.
If there aren't any suitable orchestras for the child to play in in the local area then it would be a shame if she can't concentrate properly and has to leave but I think the conductor (or section leader) should discuss it with her and her mother and make it clear that there are standards or behaviour expected as well as standards of playing and that if she is going to distract others then unfortunately she isn't ready to be in the orchestra.
If there are orchestras aimed at her age group she would be better off staying in those for a couple more years until she is mature enough to join your orchestra.

Chat to your section leader first and then the conductor to see what can be done.

[Pond]

My daughter plays in an adult orchestra sometimes, so I've drawn this post to her attention with a strong warning that she mustn't be a pain to the adults.
It's not ideal even if the child isn't disruptive - children do like to be with other children - but where we live there is no county music provision for children and the only possible children's orchestra she could go to is astronomically expensive.
I used to play in a practice band where there was a mentally disabled adult who played a wind instrument. He obviously loved being there, but was very disruptive, talking constantly. In the end he was asked to leave. Different from a child, in that hopefully the child will change her behaviour once she understands that the OP finds it disruptive.
My daughter has actually done a lot of music with adults, instrumental and singing, and I've had very good feedback about her from the people leading the groups. We are lucky where we are in that people have been very welcoming to her - for instance they have been happy for her to take part in choral concerts as the only child from when she was 9. I am sure that some people would disapprove of that, but she enjoys herself and learns a lot, and she also makes a strong contribution.
Hopefully a friendly and tactful explanation from the conductor will iron out the talking problem, without the child feeling that you want her to leave the orchestra.

[Tenor Viol]

Awkward. The community orchestra I play in has a few youngsters - bar one they are mid teens 15/16 or so. Apart from a bit of teenage 'attitude' they're fine. We have recently acquired a much younger person aged 10. Fortunately they are fine - and the MD is their music teacher.

However.... the points made by others are valid. If your group is primarily adult, then you ought to have clear policies with regard to youngsters, especially U16. Whilst not mandatory, there should be a child protection policy in place with a nominated responsible adult. In the case of the youngsters, it needs to be made clear that behaviour, not just performance ability, is a requirement for membership. If they are unable to behave in a manner appropriate to the group then they should not be in it.

If the group is mainly adult then it is an adult group. The adult members are entitled to a certain level of expectation with regard to not being harassed or having to 'make allowances' for youngsters as well.

Generally, if U16 it would be better if they were in an age appropriate group. Does the local authority not run anything?

[Banjogirl]

I think you can be quite blunt and clear about what is and isn't acceptable. If she really wants to be there she'll take it on the chin and if she doesn't want to behave in a more adult way she'll leave.

[Arundodonuts]

I attend a music club where most ensembles have a very wide range of age groups. Discipline and behaviour do not appear to be related to age.

[BitterSweet]

I just want to add to the chorus of agreement:

- speak to your section leader and/or the conductor (whatever the correct protocol is) because it's much better if several adults can work out together what is best to do. It might just be a simple conversation is enough, or it might need to go so far as saying she's not old enough to be in the orchestra.

- make sure there's a child protection policy. If there is one, there should be a responsible adult, who needs to be part of any discussions about the child's behaviour. If there's no policy, this is a serious problem, and needs rectifying immediately. It cannot be overstated how important it is to be beyond reproach on this issue, especially as an amateur group (and even more so in the current media climate).

Hopefully, this is just a case of a child who hasn't been taught how to behave and just needs guidance, rather than a child with significant behaviour issues.

[RoseRodent]

I used to play in a practice band where there was a mentally disabled adult who played a wind instrument. He obviously loved being there, but was very disruptive, talking constantly. In the end he was ed to leave

Wow, be careful with that one, you could be sued for discrimination. I don't want to open a discussion on who agrees with the law and who doesn't, it IS the law so anyone involved in the running of such groups is obliged to comply with it. No buts, no comebacks.

[tangerine]

I used to play in a practice band where there was a mentally disabled adult who played a wind instrument. He obviously loved being there, but was very disruptive, talking constantly. In the end he was ed to leave

Wow, be careful with that one, you could be sued for discrimination. I don't want to open a discussion on who agrees with the law and who doesn't, it IS the law so anyone involved in the running of such groups is obliged to comply with it. No buts, no comebacks.

I agree. I was very saddened when I read this post. As the parent of a mentally disabled adult, I find it distressing to read about this sort of thing.

[violincjj]

I attend a music club where most ensembles have a very wide range of age groups. Discipline and behaviour do not appear to be related to age.

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Quite so!

[owainsutton]

I used to play in a practice band where there was a mentally disabled adult who played a wind instrument. He obviously loved being there, but was very disruptive, talking constantly. In the end he was ed to leave

Wow, be careful with that one, you could be sued for discrimination. I don't want to open a discussion on who agrees with the law and who doesn't, it IS the law so anyone involved in the running of such groups is obliged to comply with it. No buts, no comebacks.

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We don't know the specifics, but this does give the impression of a group which had a lack of understanding and tolerance of the situation...

[Banjogirl]

In my children's choir we had two boys who had been adopted from very difficult circumstances. Individually they were lovely boys but they ruined the choir. Luckily their dad was understanding and stopped them coming. If they had carried on there would have been no choir any more. Is this supposed to be good for anyone? It just wasn't a suitable environment for them, however inclusive people would like to be in theory.

Two of mine have been, as children, in adult or older youth choirs. They were not cut any slack in spite of their considerable 'cute' value to the respective groups. And because of that they learned the proper way to behave and that they had to put the work in if they wanted to be part of the group. A win for everyone and I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

[gwyntdi-enw]

I attend a music club where most ensembles have a very wide range of age groups. Discipline and behaviour do not appear to be related to age.

Hear - hear! I have recently joined an adult group where the average age is probably 70+, and would be higher if I wasn't there. The behaviour is frankly appaling, with incessant talking and ignoring the conductor. It's such a waste of everyone's time.