Scales Discrepancy Between Instruments Options

[Violinia]

At Grade 3, violin candidates have to learn 5 major scales and arpeggios, 4 minor scales and arpeggios, one basic chromatic scale and one basic dominant seventh - this amounts to 20 different fingerings.

At Grade 3, trumpet candidates have to learn 3 major scales and arpeggios, 2 minor scales and arpeggios and one chromatic scale - this amounts to 11 different fingerings.

Why the discrepancy?

[Arundodonuts]

At Grade 3, violin candidates have to learn 5 major scales and arpeggios, 4 minor scales and arpeggios, one basic chromatic scale and one basic dominant seventh - this amounts to 20 different fingerings.

At Grade 3, trumpet candidates have to learn 3 major scales and arpeggios, 2 minor scales and arpeggios and one chromatic scale - this amounts to 11 different fingerings.

Why the discrepancy?

On oboe at Grade 3 it's 3 majors, 5 minors plus one chromatic. I guess it just balances out with the other "issues" one has to address on a particular instrument.

[sarah123]

Piano is 5 major, 3 minor scales and arpeggios, 2 contrary motion and 2 chromatic, so that's 20 (unless you count LH/RH/hands together as different, in which case there's lots!)

For recorder, there's 4 major and 3 minor scales and arpeggios and one chromatic, so that's 15.

Recorder scales (and, I would imagine, trumpet scales) are much more difficult to remember and the finger patterns can be pretty random compared to piano though, so I can understand why there's fewer of them.

[2childmum]

I play viola and piano, my daughter plays violin and my son is taking his grade 3 trumpet next week.

I initially thought he had it easier until I realised how random the fingering for his scales is. On the piano you play up the keyboard and down again, on strings you play up the strings and down again, but on the trumpet he has to remember valves in random combinations, plus use his lips to adjust the pitch. He doesn't seem to have any system for remembering them either.

Since I've realised this I'm not so 'on his case' when he makes a mistake.

[Misti]

I think for wind you're much more likely to have to use muscle memory to program sclaes into your brain so you don't have to think about at all. I never found a different way to learn scales other that brute memorisation of every individual pattern, even when tackling the hundreds required for G8.

In addition, on wind instruments each new note has its own perculiar challenges. Maybe I'm a bit oblivious, but surely if you can play one note on piano, you can play every note (and same with strings?) so there aren't the range limitations that wind instruments have. After all, you can't ask for a scale containing notes that a typical G3 student won't have the technical ability to produce!

[Aquarelle]

I think woodwind scales are fiendishly difficult. I've just had a Grade 2 recorder player who simply forgot the lot in his exam. He does have learning difficulties but even so I think recorder scales are much more difficult than piano where at least the fingering is logical and you can see what you are playing as well as hear it.

However, I suspect that by the time each instrument has got to Grade 8 the unevenness of the pacing through the grades is ironed out.

[briantrumpet]

The problem with scales on brass instruments is the complete illogicality of the fingering; the almost complete apparent disconnection between the pattern of tones and semitones; and difficulty of remembering which note you're on, particularly on descending scales.

Some examples of Grade 1 to Grade 3 scales:
C major fingering: 0; 1+3; 1+2; 1; 0; 1+2; 2; 0.
D major: 1+3; 1+2; 2; 0; 1+2; 2; 1+2; 1.
E major: 1+2; 2; 2+3; 1+2; 2; 1+2; 2; 0

Can you see any logic in the sequences?

I think that most people would find these quite tricky to learn as pure patterns. The only way to do it in practice is to combine a lot of information for each note - the name of the note, what the fingering is AND what it sounds like - in order to learn and execute scales accurately, but still dealing with the almost complete irrationality of the sequence of fingerings of each scale. In short, NONE of the scales has any logical sequence to the fingering.

A 'for instance' of one difficulty in the E major scale is the repeated 1+2; 2 pattern - if you lose track of which note you're on in the sequence coming down, you can't just work out which note you're on by looking at your fingers, and knowing what the sound of the next note will be won't tell you where to go either, as the sequence of tones and semitones aren't represented by a logical pattern.

It's all rather challenging for young brains, which are programmed to seek out and apply patterns. I've been reading a book about irregular verbs & plurals, and the research clearly shows that children have an innate ability to discover and apply patterns & rules; it's the darned irregulars that cause all the problems. Sing - sang - sung - singed; spring - sprang - sprung - springed; swing - swang - swung - swinged; sting - stang - stung - stinged. Confused? Which ones are right?? When rules can't be applied easily, it takes up much more processing power, as each pattern must be learnt individually.

That's why there are fewer scales for brass.

[river]

Recorder scales (and, I would imagine, trumpet scales) are much more difficult to remember and the finger patterns can be pretty random compared to piano though, so I can understand why there's fewer of them.

hmm--i had always assumed that recorder fingerings would be somewhat similar to simple system flute fingerings (which are usually fairly logical, at least in C and D); but having just looked at a recorder fingering chart, there do seem to be an excessive number of cross fingerings that don't make all that much sense.

[sarah123]

Recorder scales (and, I would imagine, trumpet scales) are much more difficult to remember and the finger patterns can be pretty random compared to piano though, so I can understand why there's fewer of them.

hmm--i had always assumed that recorder fingerings would be somewhat similar to simple system flute fingerings (which are usually fairly logical, at least in C and D); but having just looked at a recorder fingering chart, there do seem to be an excessive number of cross fingerings that don't make all that much sense.

The fingerings at least roughly follow a pattern for the first two octaves, but after that, they go pretty much random. The 2-octave Ab major scale is a bit of a b*gger. The second octave is 23456, /12346, /123, /124, /1256(half of 7), /145, /13467, /13 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[river]

The fingerings at least roughly follow a pattern for the first two octaves, but after that, they go pretty much random. The 2-octave Ab major scale is a bit of a b*gger. The second octave is 23456, /12346, /123, /124, /1256(half of 7), /145, /13467, /13 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

well, from the chart i'm looking at here (this one), you have, for instance, cross fingerings for both F and F# in the 1st/2nd octave - and with several fingers, while the Boehm flute F# is just 123--6 (and F is 1234--); and then Bb is 1-3-56, while on the flute it's just 1--4--.

of course, once you get to the third octave, flute fingerings don't make much sense either...

[sarah123]

The fingerings at least roughly follow a pattern for the first two octaves, but after that, they go pretty much random. The 2-octave Ab major scale is a bit of a b*gger. The second octave is 23456, /12346, /123, /124, /1256(half of 7), /145, /13467, /13 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

well, from the chart i'm looking at here (this one), you have, for instance, cross fingerings for both F and F# in the 1st/2nd octave - and with several fingers, while the Boehm flute F# is just 123--6 (and F is 1234--); and then Bb is 1-3-56, while on the flute it's just 1--4--.

of course, once you get to the third octave, flute fingerings don't make much sense either...

That's an interesting Bb fingering - I haven't seen it before - the normal one is 0134. Your one seems to work though.

[madbassoonist]

of course, once you get to the third octave, flute fingerings don't make much sense either...

None of the bassoon fingerings above middle C make a great deal of sense! Although my teacher claims otherwise! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[andante_in_c]

of course, once you get to the third octave, flute fingerings don't make much sense either...

They do if you see the higher note fingerings (up to G, anyway) as a combination of two lower note fingerings. Top D is a version of G, top E of A and E combined, top F of B flat and F, top F# of B and F# and top G of C and G. The higher note is a harmonic of both the lower notes.

Even more off-topic: a good trick is to play the G major scale with just your left hand. You start on middle G and play up to C. Then overblow the same four notes to get the next harmonic, which gives you D, E, F# and G. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Arundodonuts]

hmm--i had always assumed that recorder fingerings would be somewhat similar to simple system flute fingerings (which are usually fairly logical, at least in C and D); but having just looked at a recorder fingering chart, there do seem to be an excessive number of cross fingerings that don't make all that much sense.

Indeed. I was delighted, having played recorder, to discover how easy oboe fingering is (well, the 1st two octaves anyhow). Though I now find myself trying to play oboe F# on a descant - it don't work.

[ChrisC]

of course, once you get to the third octave, flute fingerings don't make much sense either...

None of the bassoon fingerings above middle C make a great deal of sense! Although my teacher claims otherwise! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Most of the notes above middle C have loads of alternative fingerings anyway, you basically have to work out which ones work best on your instrument, and even then some work better than others in different contexts. I still reckon it's easier than a string instrument, or the piano - at least your hands stay in the same place all the time!

Chris