Male choir v's Mixed choir Options

[MNW]

I'm looking into some small church choirs that my son could join once he attends his new school. He has only ever sung in a choir of men and boys, with the boys often singing on their own. I have noticed that he does not always sing the high parts or melody as the boys are split into two sections, although there are many occasions when he does.

If he were to join a mixed choir, would he be limited to singing only one part as the adult females would sing alto and soprano. I'm sure he currently sings a mixture of both and I assume by doing so it helps him progress musically and vocally.

I currently have the choice of two male choirs and two mixed choirs. One of the mixed choirs seem to do a lot more touring, have more rehearsals and external events such as weddings but only have one service per week. It also has a number of members in the RSCM Voices and as this is auditioned they must be of a high calibre.

So, I need advice on male v's mixed choirs and also what elsen i should look out for when seeking a good but small church choir.

[Dulcet]

I'm looking into some small church choirs that my son could join once he attends his new school. He has only ever sung in a choir of men and boys, with the boys often singing on their own. I have noticed that he does not always sing the high parts or melody as the boys are split into two sections, although there are many occasions when he does.

If he were to join a mixed choir, would he be limited to singing only one part as the adult females would sing alto and soprano. I'm sure he currently sings a mixture of both and I assume by doing so it helps him progress musically and vocally.

I currently have the choice of two male choirs and two mixed choirs. One of the mixed choirs seem to do a lot more touring, have more rehearsals and external events such as weddings but only have one service per week. It also has a number of members in the RSCM Voices and as this is auditioned they must be of a high calibre.

So, I need advice on male v's mixed choirs and also what elsen i should look out for when seeking a good but small church choir.

Do they not sing at all at the Purcell? I am sure there are choirs - they have vocal tutors!

Find the choir he enjoys singing in. He won't be able to do tours and concerts when he's at the purcell, will he? Find one with nice people! (and a MD who knows about young voices). I can't see what difference it'll make whether the choir's all male or not. I bet he doesn't sing alto very often - it would be pointless in a choir with countertenors, he'd never be heard! What is far more likely is that he would be singing 2nd sop sometimes. In "cathedral-style" choirs there is more opportunity for 5 or 8 part singing with 2 sop lines; the average church choir is less likely to be able to field enough confident singers to do this. Come down to NE hants and try us out!

[Seer_Green]

I currently have the choice of two male choirs and two mixed choirs. One of the mixed choirs seem to do a lot more touring, have more rehearsals and external events such as weddings but only have one service per week. It also has a number of members in the RSCM Voices and as this is auditioned they must be of a high calibre.

Well, I'm absolutely amazed that there's a choice anywhere these days! I have to be honest and say that I've never come across anyone 'shopping around' for a church choir! Anyway...

The majority of the parish church choirs I come across (and believe me, that's quite a few) are mixed SATB. In that sense there is unlikely to be any dividing into 1st/2nd sop anyway. The majority of the mixed ones tend to be female SA and male TB, though of course there is variation. That said, I'm struggling to think of the last time I came across such a choir which fielded either adult female/girls S or A lines which included boys.

As for singing the part, he should really be singing the one which suits his voice. That means that in most SATB choirs (where, as I've said, there isn't likely to be much division, if any) it's either going to be S or A. Obviously if you're looking at cathedral/collegiate choirs then it's a different ball game, but for the average parish choir I think the options are more limited.

As for choosing, well I think a lot comes down to personal choice - you'll either like the other people or you won't. If he wants to do a lot of touring, then obviously try to choose one what 'specialises' in that etc.

You mentioned in your other thread:

I need to find a small church choir with a good choral director but it will be difficult as he has been taught by the best on two occasions.

I really have no idea how you define 'the best', and I have no idea where he's sung before, but if you really do believe that he's already been coached by 'the best', surely nothing can ever live up to that and you'll always be dissapointed?

[MNW]

I knew as I wrote that comment it would come out wrong. When I say "best" I mean he has been in two Cathedral choirs with one being St Paul's Cathedral. That's not to say that there is not a phenomenal talent currently building up experience in a small Parish Church, and if there is such a person then that's what I'm looking for. Purcell does have a choir, and I'm sure it's excellent but based on experience I do not believe that anything beats the musical and vocal education that a child chorister receives.

[Dulcet]

I knew as I wrote that comment it would come out wrong. When I say "best" I mean he has been in two Cathedral choirs with one being St Paul's Cathedral. That's not to say that there is not a phenomenal talent currently building up experience in a small Parish Church, and if there is such a person then that's what I'm looking for. Purcell does have a choir, and I'm sure it's excellent but based on experience I do not believe that anything beats the musical and vocal education that a child chorister receives.

Now, you've opened a bag of worms and a half!

They're different approaches to music, I'd say.

I currently have the choice of two male choirs and two mixed choirs. One of the mixed choirs seem to do a lot more touring, have more rehearsals and external events such as weddings but only have one service per week. It also has a number of members in the RSCM Voices and as this is auditioned they must be of a high calibre.

Well, I'm absolutely amazed that there's a choice anywhere these days! I have to be honest and say that I've never come across anyone 'shopping around' for a church choir! Anyway...

The majority of the parish church choirs I come across (and believe me, that's quite a few) are mixed SATB. In that sense there is unlikely to be any dividing into 1st/2nd sop anyway. The majority of the mixed ones tend to be female SA and male TB, though of course there is variation. That said, I'm struggling to think of the last time I came across such a choir which fielded either adult female/girls S or A lines which included boys.

Having difficulty unravelling your last sentence - could you clarify, please?

[Seer_Green]

Having difficulty unravelling your last sentence - could you clarify, please?

Really I was saying that I rarely see mixed choirs these days which have a mixture of boy trebles, adult females or girls on the top two parts - most are mixtures of the latter two (though I'm aware this isn't exclusively the case)

[MNW]

I'm also confused. There are lots of choirs with a mixture of both genders and age ranges. What is rarer is to find a purely male choir or female choir.

[Seer_Green]

I'm also confused. There are lots of choirs with a mixture of both genders and age ranges. What is rarer is to find a purely male choir or female choir.

That may be the case but I said "I'm struggling to think of the last time I came across such a choir " i.e. personal experience, and bear in mind that it is different in different parts of the country. I don't think anyone needs to be confused, they just need to read, take in and digest the words 'I'm' and 'I' in my original post. I also said in clarification 'I'm aware that's not exclusively the case'.

[Dulcet]

I'm also confused. There are lots of choirs with a mixture of both genders and age ranges. What is rarer is to find a purely male choir or female choir.

That may be the case but I said "I'm struggling to think of the last time I came across such a choir " i.e. personal experience, and bear in mind that it is different in different parts of the country. I don't think anyone needs to be confused, they just need to read, take in and digest the words 'I'm' and 'I' in my original post. I also said in clarification 'I'm aware that's not exclusively the case'.

As I said, come down to Hampshire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sing.gif)

[Seer_Green]

I'm also confused. There are lots of choirs with a mixture of both genders and age ranges. What is rarer is to find a purely male choir or female choir.

That may be the case but I said "I'm struggling to think of the last time I came across such a choir " i.e. personal experience, and bear in mind that it is different in different parts of the country. I don't think anyone needs to be confused, they just need to read, take in and digest the words 'I'm' and 'I' in my original post. I also said in clarification 'I'm aware that's not exclusively the case'.

As I said, come down to Hampshire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sing.gif)

lol That's where I came from 27 years ago

[dolce@piano]

If he's had excellent choir masters in the past, couldn't they recommend the right choir/right sort of choir for your son ?

[Dulcet]

I'm also confused. There are lots of choirs with a mixture of both genders and age ranges. What is rarer is to find a purely male choir or female choir.

That may be the case but I said "I'm struggling to think of the last time I came across such a choir " i.e. personal experience, and bear in mind that it is different in different parts of the country. I don't think anyone needs to be confused, they just need to read, take in and digest the words 'I'm' and 'I' in my original post. I also said in clarification 'I'm aware that's not exclusively the case'.

As I said, come down to Hampshire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sing.gif)

lol That's where I came from 27 years ago

Our church choir has (as regular-ish attendees) 4 basses, one male tenor, one female tenor, one countertenor/tenor as necessary, 3 female altos, 8 adult sopranos, 4 girl choristers and 4 boy choristers. OK so we're more likely only to get about 2/3 of this number but still, I reckon this counts as a Mixed Choir - and we're quite good!

[linda.ff]

Our church choir has (as regular-ish attendees) 4 basses, one male tenor, one female tenor, one countertenor/tenor as necessary, 3 female altos, 8 adult sopranos, 4 girl choristers and 4 boy choristers. OK so we're more likely only to get about 2/3 of this number but still, I reckon this counts as a Mixed Choir - and we're quite good!

That sounds like the archetypal local church choir and they can be beautiful or awful. But one thing they nearly always are is a good musical education for the younger members (and some of the older)

I started in a choir like that. My Dad had been organist at a "high" anglican chirch which had only boys and a very few men, and at evensong there were a handful of ladies as well but they (we, but I was only 10) were rather enclosed behind the main choir in a little ark behind the stalls, and I don't think we ever really did anything that qualified us as choir. In the morning service I used to sit near the organ at the back, and my Dad gave me a hymn book and I found I could read the alto parts "just like that". I now know that made me lucky rather than "good".

We moved to a church nearer home, where there were about a dozen boys, three girls - we were the first three - about four men, and about eight ladies.

This was about 1960. The ladies had been in the choir since before WWII. And they were just AWFUL. Actually some of them may not have been too bad apart from elderly voices and attitudes. but the main two, who were sisters, were catty in every way including the way they sang. The younger, a widow, really did sound like a cat yowling and she was EXTREMELY LOUD. The older, a very short fat spinster with a club foot, had a tremolo at least a tone wide. You couldn't hear the boys most of the time.

The rector wouldn't get rid of them. They had sang in the choir since before the war, done great service to the church - possibly the also did flowers, I'm not sure - and it would be insulting to them. Well, it was insulting to the congregation who regularly used to complain about them.

My dad started including verses in the hymns which would be sung by just the choir children. The rector (silly old fool) picked up on this and would announce that verse three would be sung by just the children, even if they hadn't had a chance to learn it, and a few of them didn't even know the tune, and I'd find myself sight-reading

Dad then entered the choir in the Church and Chapel choirs class in a local festival - but just the children, who by that tim numbered 20 and were more girls than boys. My little brother was a lovely treble. We sang a hymn with a harmony part and a solo for me in the third verse (my first taste of solo success!) and a two-part anthem, and to our amazement we won.

After that Dad's next ploy was to have the adults go up to the choir-stalls (where actually they couldn't be seen if you sat far enough to the left of the church) and to sit the children in the small block of pews by the organ; he wrote little anthems to suit us, and we still got the occasional verse. This was much better! But eventually, after a few years, he fell out with the recotr and went to a church in a very large vilage half an hour away, taking me and a couple of older pupils from school with him, and started a choir there.

A new rector came to the old church. The first thing he did was to sack the ladies. And pay the kids. Which really swelled the choir;. Then the PCC decided they couldn't pay the kids any more and the numbers dwindled. We came back, the evensong was a sparsely attended service and usually only got a bout a quartet for the choir (I was off the university in the middle of all this) and the morning service was moved to a small tin curch which was much nearer the middle of the town, and had a small organ right at the back with a small - again, mixed adults and kids - choir sitting beside it. The church was getting more and more "social" and ecumenical and silly ideas started to be mooted, such as the church choir members should be scattered around the congregation to help them all sing
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/excl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/argh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bob.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Our cassock days were definitely over, and so was most of the good music in that church (for a while - Dad changed jobs and moved across country three years later)

[Dulcet]

Our church choir has (as regular-ish attendees) 4 basses, one male tenor, one female tenor, one countertenor/tenor as necessary, 3 female altos, 8 adult sopranos, 4 girl choristers and 4 boy choristers. OK so we're more likely only to get about 2/3 of this number but still, I reckon this counts as a Mixed Choir - and we're quite good!

That sounds like the archetypal local church choir and they can be beautiful or awful. But one thing they nearly always are is a good musical education for the younger members (and some of the older)

I started in a choir like that. My Dad had been organist at a "high" anglican chirch which had only boys and a very few men, and at evensong there were a handful of ladies as well but they (we, but I was only 10) were rather enclosed behind the main choir in a little ark behind the stalls, and I don't think we ever really did anything that qualified us as choir. In the morning service I used to sit near the organ at the back, and my Dad gave me a hymn book and I found I could read the alto parts "just like that". I now know that made me lucky rather than "good".

We moved to a church nearer home, where there were about a dozen boys, three girls - we were the first three - about four men, and about eight ladies.

This was about 1960. The ladies had been in the choir since before WWII. And they were just AWFUL. Actually some of them may not have been too bad apart from elderly voices and attitudes. but the main two, who were sisters, were catty in every way including the way they sang. The younger, a widow, really did sound like a cat yowling and she was EXTREMELY LOUD. The older, a very short fat spinster with a club foot, had a tremolo at least a tone wide. You couldn't hear the boys most of the time.

The rector wouldn't get rid of them. They had sang in the choir since before the war, done great service to the church - possibly the also did flowers, I'm not sure - and it would be insulting to them. Well, it was insulting to the congregation who regularly used to complain about them.

My dad started including verses in the hymns which would be sung by just the choir children. The rector (silly old fool) picked up on this and would announce that verse three would be sung by just the children, even if they hadn't had a chance to learn it, and a few of them didn't even know the tune, and I'd find myself sight-reading

Dad then entered the choir in the Church and Chapel choirs class in a local festival - but just the children, who by that tim numbered 20 and were more girls than boys. My little brother was a lovely treble. We sang a hymn with a harmony part and a solo for me in the third verse (my first taste of solo success!) and a two-part anthem, and to our amazement we won.

After that Dad's next ploy was to have the adults go up to the choir-stalls (where actually they couldn't be seen if you sat far enough to the left of the church) and to sit the children in the small block of pews by the organ; he wrote little anthems to suit us, and we still got the occasional verse. This was much better! But eventually, after a few years, he fell out with the recotr and went to a church in a very large vilage half an hour away, taking me and a couple of older pupils from school with him, and started a choir there.

A new rector came to the old church. The first thing he did was to sack the ladies. And pay the kids. Which really swelled the choir;. Then the PCC decided they couldn't pay the kids any more and the numbers dwindled. We came back, the evensong was a sparsely attended service and usually only got a bout a quartet for the choir (I was off the university in the middle of all this) and the morning service was moved to a small tin curch which was much nearer the middle of the town, and had a small organ right at the back with a small - again, mixed adults and kids - choir sitting beside it. The church was getting more and more "social" and ecumenical and silly ideas started to be mooted, such as the church choir members should be scattered around the congregation to help them all sing
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/excl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/argh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bob.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Our cassock days were definitely over, and so was most of the good music in that church (for a while - Dad changed jobs and moved across country three years later)

I wonder how many others are nodding in pained memory of similar times... Reg Frary had it so right!