Hymns and the Visitor, Any suggestions? Options

[elidatrading]

A couple of delights I have had preaching in other churches (not my regular ones)

1. Sunday after Easter. Was told to contact the music group leader. This was supposed to be the Sunday for a traditional service (they were supposed to alternate - supposed being the word!). Music group leader "we don't really do hymns" me: "OK, I'll have a think about it and call you back". When I called back, I asked for Graham Kendrick's "He has risen" Music group leader "That's a hymn!" (well, perhaps ...). I said "I tell you what, you pick them, tell me on the day"

2. Regular organist away. The stand-in can play all the hymns on the lsit we are going to send you". Fine, there were perhaps 30 hymns on there. What they failed to mention was that she played all 30 in the same key (D major). I was forced to avoid the eyes of anyone in the congregation, I would have cracked up if anyone had made any negative facial expression when the hymns were a fifth too low!

3. Joint churches ladies' meeting, an honary man present to play a large piece of Yamaha computer wizardry. I had asked for "Name of all majesty". Before the service the man was practising. Towards the end of that hymn there is a sequence which is not exact, the pattern changes slighty the third time. Not according to this player. I knew it was going to annoy me so I thought I try being tactful "it's difficult to see the music when you're that far back from the keyboard in this light isn't it? That note's a D". He retorted "that's how we sing it in my church!" O well. What made it even worse was that when we sang it, he played it all in triple time rather than in 44.

Liz

[maggiemay]

Well, I may have told this tale before, but it was a very long time ago, so maybe not.

I was still at school. Standing in as organist at a very large town-centre Congregational church, with a name for importance and large congregations (but ok this was a midweek evening).

I turn up in good time and play some gentle stuff to get the assembled in the mood.

Hymn book is not known to me but I have a list and am a good sight-reader. We sing the first hymn and it seems to go well.

Minister in charge announces the secnd hymn, and I do the play-over.
By the end of the first verse it becomes apparent that no-one is joining in. I keep going gamely, but eventually the minister calls all to a halt and announces 'nobody knows this tune. Try the next one'. I confirm - he does mean the next tune in the book, not the next hymn.

"But it's not the same metre.' (This from a mere 16 year old slip of a girl).

Minister ' what do you mean?'.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[elidatrading]

We had one once - not me playing, thank goodness, where someone changed a hymn at the last minute and forgot to tell the organist. Result - "facing a task unfinshed" (which is normally sung to "aurelia") was sung to "there's a work form Jesus ready at your hand" (which is 6.5.6.5.6.5.6.5 and has a 7.11.7.11 chorus). Most of the congregation struggled on valiantly with the totally unsuitable tune before reaching the chorus, at which point it all fell apart. It was like something from "I'm sorry I haven't a clue"

Liz

[dotted quaver]

Someone in my church thought I kept rearranging the notes in the chants not realising they were different chants and there was a whole book of them to choose from! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[mel2]

We had one once - not me playing, thank goodness, where someone changed a hymn at the last minute and forgot to tell the organist. Result - "facing a task unfinshed" (which is normally sung to "aurelia") was sung to "there's a work form Jesus ready at your hand" (which is 6.5.6.5.6.5.6.5 and has a 7.11.7.11 chorus). Most of the congregation struggled on valiantly with the totally unsuitable tune before reaching the chorus, at which point it all fell apart. It was like something from "I'm sorry I haven't a clue"

Liz

They would undoubtedly have benefited from forward planning!

Serves them right for pulling a fast one. Trouble is, it's always the organist who ends up looking like a lemon when it isn't their fault....

[soccermom]

Serves them right for pulling a fast one. Trouble is, it's always the organist who ends up looking like a lemon when it isn't their fault....

Or the choir

Just come back from a very irritating service. I am the "choir mistress" of the small and not very good choir. Every month or so I choose hymns for the following couple of months and send them as suggestions to the clergy and organists (two regular organists 3 main clergy). Back in October I proposed all the humns for Novermer and Decemer - so that everyone concerned could loot at the services for Advent and Christmas. I am not precious about my suggestions. I know it is the responsibility of others to make the decisions and I am very relaxed about things being changed. However...

I turned up to day- to find that two of the hymns had been changed. Only one of my original suggestions had been kept. The Minister had included one hymn I had proposed for next week and two that are not in our hymn book - one of which "People Look East" we knew, the other we didn't (can't remember it's name, it was particularly unmemorable).

This was clearly not a last minute decision: a booklet with all the words in had been prepared, and the organist had been told. Unfortunately no-one had thought to tell the choir. To make matters worse, the Minister decided that we should sing the new hymns through in advance so that people could learn them. I have no objection to that. What I did have an objection to was two members of the congregation being asked to stand at the front and lead the singing while the choir stood at the back looking like spare parts as we waited to process in. True, the choir did not know the hymn. But we could have learned it if we had been told in advance and - even if we hadn't - at least half of us are good enough sight-readers for it not to have mattered. I have honestly never felt so insulted.

The organist then added insult to injury, by deciding to play a different tune to one of the other hymns. We normally sing "Come, though long-expected Jesus" to Stuttgart. I have no idea what tune the organist played today, but only one member of the choir knew it (not me) and not many of the congregation. Aaaaargh.

I have to email the clergy later today as the hymns for the rest of Advent will need revising in the light of today's changes and to reflect the changes the Rector has told me she wants to make to the service she is taking on 18 December, which also have knock-on effects (but which are very easy to manage given the notice she has given me). Thought I'd better get this off my chest before I do, so that I'm not quite so grumpy later

[all ears]

Perhaps churches could just ask if ministers and parishioners could kindly stay away from church when musicians are in the building?

[Misti]

There was a bit of fuss today, when it emerged that someone had manage to rearrange the digits of one of the hymn numbers on the board. I didn't know any of the hymns for today, but it didn't take me more than 2 lines to realise that 1) the words didn't fit and 2) the choir were singing something totally different to the words in my book. Gradually the word spreads from pew to pew as to the correct number. The congregation have just got themselves sorted out, those in the right place valiantly helping everyone else find it. Then, with one verse left to go, the minister decided we'd better start again.

Apparently the organist insisted... I wonder if he really did. Of course, reading this forum also then makes me suspicious as to whether it was an accident or not!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[BerkshireMum]

Serves them right for pulling a fast one. Trouble is, it's always the organist who ends up looking like a lemon when it isn't their fault....

Or the choir

Just come back from a very irritating service. I am the "choir mistress" of the small and not very good choir. Every month or so I choose hymns for the following couple of months and send them as suggestions to the clergy and organists (two regular organists 3 main clergy). Back in October I proposed all the humns for Novermer and Decemer - so that everyone concerned could loot at the services for Advent and Christmas. I am not precious about my suggestions. I know it is the responsibility of others to make the decisions and I am very relaxed about things being changed. However...

I turned up to day- to find that two of the hymns had been changed. Only one of my original suggestions had been kept. The Minister had included one hymn I had proposed for next week and two that are not in our hymn book - one of which "People Look East" we knew, the other we didn't (can't remember it's name, it was particularly unmemorable).

This was clearly not a last minute decision: a booklet with all the words in had been prepared, and the organist had been told. Unfortunately no-one had thought to tell the choir. To make matters worse, the Minister decided that we should sing the new hymns through in advance so that people could learn them. I have no objection to that. What I did have an objection to was two members of the congregation being asked to stand at the front and lead the singing while the choir stood at the back looking like spare parts as we waited to process in. True, the choir did not know the hymn. But we could have learned it if we had been told in advance and - even if we hadn't - at least half of us are good enough sight-readers for it not to have mattered. I have honestly never felt so insulted.

The organist then added insult to injury, by deciding to play a different tune to one of the other hymns. We normally sing "Come, though long-expected Jesus" to Stuttgart. I have no idea what tune the organist played today, but only one member of the choir knew it (not me) and not many of the congregation. Aaaaargh.

I have to email the clergy later today as the hymns for the rest of Advent will need revising in the light of today's changes and to reflect the changes the Rector has told me she wants to make to the service she is taking on 18 December, which also have knock-on effects (but which are very easy to manage given the notice she has given me). Thought I'd better get this off my chest before I do, so that I'm not quite so grumpy later

Sorry to read this, soccermom. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I think it's so thoughtless to leave the choir in the dark about the hymns and tunes to be sung. As for leaving you all at the back, whilst members of the congregation sang the new hymn... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) I believe a bit of a grump is quite in order!

[Keyhorn]

There's no substitute for a regular face to face meeting between Minister (in charge [see Canon B20 for CofE]) and musician in charge.

We do this (I have a monthly meeting with he who must be obeyed) and can say that most problems can be discussed, mediated, and generally headed-off. Sometimes he feels cause to complain about something, and sometimes I do - but usually we can in due course deal with it all amicably.

It doesn't solve all problems, but does deal with most. It is also a good sounding board for new ideas, his and mine.

[soccermom]

One of the problems for us is the lack of a regular Minister. We are the daughter church of a larger parish church so have the Rector once a month or so and the other services are taken by a variety of others. The two most regular (and the Rector herself) are very good and almost always let me know about changes well in advance. The others don't usually change anything at all, so I have probably been lulled into a false sense of security.

I have calmed down since this morning and have decided not to send a moany email to the Rector. It wasn't her fault after all and with a bit of luck we won't have this chap again. If I see him on the rota again I will just have make sure I try to contact him well in advance to confirm what he wants to do.

Thinking about it more rationally it is also perhaps a slightly odd situation in that I am the one (not the organist) who suggests the music in the first place - both for our usual Sunday service and our annual Carol service. I don't know why - that is how it has always been done in our church in the 12 years I've been going. It is entirely possible that today's chap contacted the organist and arranged everything with her, assuming that the message would get across to us...

[Keyhorn]

....
Thinking about it more rationally it is also perhaps a slightly odd situation in that I am the one (not the organist) who suggests the music in the first place - both for our usual Sunday service and our annual Carol service. I don't know why - that is how it has always been done in our church in the 12 years I've been going. It is entirely possible that today's chap contacted the organist and arranged everything with her, assuming that the message would get across to us...

I suspect here lies the issue - a lack of clear lines of reponsibility in the parish. In fact, (no doubt Barry will correct if I'm off the mark) the Rector could well lay down what procedures are to be followed by ALL involved, with consequent benefit for communications and efficiency.

Your situation is somewhat similar to mine - I choose all the music (hymns, psalms, anthems, settings, voluntaries, etc.) and the minister either goes along with them or we discuss a change. He gets access to what I've chosen three months in advance, so there's plenty of time to accommodate necessary changes before the choirs gets committed to rehearsing anything.

[Barry Williams]

....
Thinking about it more rationally it is also perhaps a slightly odd situation in that I am the one (not the organist) who suggests the music in the first place - both for our usual Sunday service and our annual Carol service. I don't know why - that is how it has always been done in our church in the 12 years I've been going. It is entirely possible that today's chap contacted the organist and arranged everything with her, assuming that the message would get across to us...

I suspect here lies the issue - a lack of clear lines of reponsibility in the parish. In fact, (no doubt Barry will correct if I'm off the mark) the Rector could well lay down what procedures are to be followed by ALL involved, with consequent benefit for communications and efficiency.

Your situation is somewhat similar to mine - I choose all the music (hymns, psalms, anthems, settings, voluntaries, etc.) and the minister either goes along with them or we discuss a change. He gets access to what I've chosen three months in advance, so there's plenty of time to accommodate necessary changes before the choirs gets committed to rehearsing anything.

Absolutely correct, Keyhorn. The minister (in the Church of England) has the last word on all matters musical.


All the Anglican difficulties described in this thread can be solved by the minister. (And should be solved by the minister.)

Barry Willams

[fsharpminor]

The organist then added insult to injury, by deciding to play a different tune to one of the other hymns. We normally sing "Come, though long-expected Jesus" to Stuttgart. I have no idea what tune the organist played today, but only one member of the choir knew it (not me) and not many of the congregation. Aaaaargh.

I did play Stuttgart yesterday, but the choir and elderly congregation were brought up on Church Hymnal 3, but for two or three years weve used Mission Praise. The harmonisation in the second line is different, an dthey weren't paying attention the the score, thinking they knew it !

[Stephen Barber]

Absolutely correct, Keyhorn. The minister (in the Church of England) has the last word on all matters musical.


All the Anglican difficulties described in this thread can be solved by the minister. (And should be solved by the minister.)

Barry Willams

Barry, can you clarify the position during an interregnum, please. My vicar is leaving and, although I'm not expecting any trouble, forewarned is forearmed! Who has final say over the music - is it the churchwardens or me? E.g. choice of hymns.

Thanks.