Musically Gifted, Musically gifted children Options

[Joanna Howard]

Would any expereinced teachers know what characteristics a musically gifted child would show?

[bhmackay]

A musically gifted child will show effortless skill and will often have perfect pitch. For them, the piano will be easy and they will often be among the academic high-flyers.

[technique_doc]

There are many factors but (in no order)....
Ability to sing (effortlessly).
On a stringed instrument, ability to adjust fingers to play in tune.
Good feel for rhythm and remembering melodic/rhythmic patterns.
'Automatic' feel for contrast in sounds and dynamics.
Movement whilst playing.
Playing few wrong notes (in the early grades) - although this can be a 'cerebral' skill.
Smiling pupils :) , always a give away if they feel the music draws out emotions.

T_D

[iainc]

I'd say that musically gifted children often display a strong ability for pattern finding, and often have a very strong natural sense of pitch and rhythm.

Iain

[Cath22]

Musically gifted children can usually sing in tune. Although i'm a violin teacher, I do a lot of aural work with them early on, and their response offen affects the way I teach them. It is very helpful to know how good an ear they have...if they play out of tune and don't correct it, you know that they are either just not hearing it, or whether they are just lazy!

[sutty_73]

Musical Gifted Children can hear a song either on the Radio/TV and play it on any instrument within 10 minutes.

Best Wishes to all,
Craig

[Alan Holmes]

The first signs that a young child may have musical gifts is that they sing to amuse themselves when they are on their own. Because they have persistence of musical memory. They can hear a tune once or twice and remember all of it. They can sing because they have recorded all of the music in their brain.

If you are testing children for musical ability ;-say as a peripatetic -who is given 5 minutes to test 20 children - play them a fairly long tune ; I used the 'Sailors Hornpipe', as played at the proms and asked them to clap all of it back. The gift is simply the ability to remember whole chunks of something only heard once or twice. To store complete tunes.
There is a part of the brain where the gift resides called ' Heschels Gyrus ' .Tests on professional musicians show this to be three times the average size.

Perfect pitch is possibly explained by the ability to remember exactly what notes are meant to sound like when they sound in tune. Each note becoming a melody in its own right.

I can vividly recall being able to put on the whole track of a jazz LP in my head and listen to it as I cycled to work. Or I could go round to a friends house - listen to a record of what we were learning for our band; then go home and practise it in the right key with total recall.
I thought everyone could do it until I started teaching and found that only one of my pupils has ever had this total recall. She could play for hours without looking at the sheet music of most flute concertos and sonatas. Just play along with the CD by memory. She also has perfect pitch, so I am sure the two are linked.

I have also discovered that musical gifts are often hereditary. That a family member ;even a few generations back has been a musician. There are a number of examples of young children who sit at a piano and just start playing it having never had a lesson in their life.
That is the Nature vs Nurture that has prompted such considerable debate.
Are you born with extraordinary musical talent or can it be taught ?

What is clear is that musically gifted children can teach themselves. Because music for them is like water to a duck. Pedantic, plodding, control- freak teachers. that are projecting their own fears, insecurities and mediocre expectations, are just getting in the way.
Hanging on to the legs of gifted children to stop them can swimming free in their element while clinging on to the side crippled with insecurity as they have always done. Which is wy their playing is not good enough that people will pay money to hear it.
They can only teach how they failed and expect no more from their unfortunate pupils.
So gifted children must have a similarly gifted teacher.

If you get a gifted pupil, you have a responsibility to get them as far as their talent can take. them. Because the tendency is just to work less because the pupil is ' easy to teach.' :blink: I know of several pupils who came to me in despair, having achieved nothing in their first two years because the person who pretended to teach them, didn’t know anything so they couldn’t learn anything.
I would say that ;if your musical perceptions are so dull that you cannot tell if a pupil is talented, why are you ' teaching ' something you know nothing about ?
Or if you are a parent; make sure you find a gifted teacher.
The question to ask is ;how long can you play the instrument without any sheet music ?

[mike_t_myers]

does anyone still read this?

[Garkleine]

Out of about 80 woodwind pupils I have one pupil who is exceptional. I have recommended him to private teachers and I hope that he will progress accordingly. The majority of pupils seem not to have great expectations and wish to enjoy their instrument at their own level. This is surely an acceptable realisation of abilties. :P :P

[Violinia]

I get really irritated with all this talk about "musically gifted" children. There's probably no such thing!!!

All babies are born with musical aptitudes and can hear when music is played out of tune - they will flinch. All babies.

A parent who will sing to that child right from the start, encouraging the child to join in, later making it possible for the child to take up a musical instrument, offering positive reinforcement all along, will very often result in a "musically gifted" child.

There's something discomfitingly elitist about labelling some children "musically gifted". What does this imply about the others? That they never had any musical potential in the first place?

I'm often told I'm musically gifted, as is my son. It's rubbish. We were both just in the right place at the right time. My mother did all of the above with me, having been brought up in a musical family herself. I then did the same with my son. If I hadn't done it I suspect he would have been no more of a musician than the average child.

My highest achieving pupils all come from families where music is very much a part of life. One girl's mum plays the flute and they've always taken her to concerts and gigs. Another girl's mum plays piano. Two excellent new pupils (both previously taught) - one of them has a guitar-playing mum, the other a piano teacher mum. The parent doesn't even have to play anything - singing is enough.

Children from totally no-musical families have a much tougher job to succeed, and will need a very good teacher, the ability to follow instructions to the letter and enormous resources of determination, self-motivation and perseverance.

Look at Kodaly; he realised this, and started a system whereby every Hungarian child would get the opportunity to learn to read music and sing by ear. Hungary is now bursting to the seams with wonderful choirs.

If every British child was brought up in a family where the parent(s) sang to their babies, played instruments themselves and then encouraged their children to take up an instrument, finding them the best possible teachers, there'd be an explosion in the number of "musically gifted" British children.

I rest my case.

Violinia

NB Occasionally I meet someone from a non-musical background who taught themself (successfully) to play an instrument. I'd say that in a case like that, the parents probably didn't sing out of tune if they ever sang, and that the person was imbued with a certain single-minded obsessiveness when pursuing a goal.

[Violinia]

QUOTE

The majority of pupils seem not to have great expectations and wish to enjoy their instrument at their own level. This is surely an acceptable realisation of abilties.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. There's truth in it, and yet...

Surely your job as a teacher is to do your utmost best to spark something off in them, so they want to do better and actually learn to fly on their instrument?

One of my pupils in one of the schools I teach in has shown very little aptitude from the start; I've been teaching him for a year now. He doesn't know when he's playing out of tune - you know the sort of thing I'm sure - but recently I showed him the blues scale because he mentioned he likes the blues, and on Friday he actually improvised a blues solo in front of the whole string group!!! And it was good!!!

At the CTABRSM course they pushed the idea that if a pupil isn't learning the teacher has to look to themself and work out the child's learning style; obviously that's very difficult in a group, but surely we shouldn't be limiting our expectations of our pupils? The fact they turn up week after week must mean the desire is there after all?

Or am I talking unrealistic nonsense here? :blink:

Perhaps I'll be more jaded in a couple of years - I've only been a peri for 18 months....

Violinia

[sarah-flute]

To a point I totally agree... but...

QUOTE

NB Occasionally I meet someone from a non-musical background who taught themself (successfully) to play an instrument. I'd say that in a case like that, the parents probably didn't sing out of tune if they ever sang, and that the person was imbued with a certain single-minded obsessiveness when pursuing a goal.

I don't know if I'd come under the category "musically gifted", but... I grew up in an average home, dad couldn't sing for toffee, mum can sing but didn't much, we listened to some amount of music but not masses and most of the classical influence has come from me... my older brother learned piano for a few years and got to be a good grade 3-4 but never went beyond that... I was desperate to do music ever since I can remember and took the violin up at 7, progressing well... but that was my first instrument and my first real musical input. So that desire/talent for music came much more from within me than from without... I didn't have parents who tried to make me love music, or tried to instill a good sense of pitch, or even sang in tune in my dad's case... I do agree that most or all children can become good musicians given the right help... but I do also think that some children (heck, some adults) have more natural talent and inclination for music than others, just the way people have talents for sport or science or writing novels. It's nature AND nurture, rather than one or the other.

[sarah-flute]

QUOTE (Violinia @ Jan 30 2005, 12:48 PM)

At the CTABRSM course they pushed the idea that if a pupil isn't learning the teacher has to look to themself and work out the child's learning style; obviously that's very difficult in a group, but surely we shouldn't be limiting our expectations of our pupils? The fact they turn up week after week must mean the desire is there after all?

except for those forced to learn by parents, yes I'd agree there must be some sort of desire there.

I guess one needs to find the balance between allowing a child to enjoy their instrument at the level they are at/not pushing them along faster than they are willing and able/finding something that inspires them and helps them realise they can be better/helping them reach their full potential. Some teachers are altogether too good at rushing pupils along whether they like it or not, and others are very talented at letting pupils wallow at a bad standard. Finding the balance... hard but necessary.

[Violinia]

QUOTE

I was desperate to do music ever since I can remember and took the violin up at 7, progressing well

OK, can you remember what musical input you had when you were very young? Who did you see playing the violin? You must have seen a violin being played somewhere for you to want to play it in the first place!

Also, at least you has parents who were prepared to invest in your musical life, by finding you a teacher and paying for your lessons!

My father was desperate to learn the piano as a child, but his mother refused to let him have lessons, saying she "wouldn't be able to stand the noise". This was one of the biggest disappointments of his life. He did try and learn piano in middle age, but didn't have the time to do a lot of practice, and it never really went anywhere. I'm positive that if my grandparents had found him a good teacher and supported him with practice he'd have at least become a competent pianist.

There are primitive cultures where every single child is enouraged to sing, play and dance. They all sing play and dance. In the Manouche gypsy tribe, virtually all the boys grow up learning to play guitar; there are countless virtuoso Manouche gypsy guitarists. Surely this is nature being nurtured.

In fact, isn't that it?

It's in all our natures, but it needs to be nurtured. You may think you had no nurture, but unlike in my father's case, they listened to you, found you a teacher, paid for your lessons and then allowed you to practise!

Violinia

[sarah-flute]

QUOTE

QUOTE I was desperate to do music ever since I can remember and took the violin up at 7, progressing well OK, can you remember what musical input you had when you were very young? Who did you see playing the violin? You must have seen a violin being played somewhere for you to want to play it in the first place!

I guess I must have done, but I truly don't remember. I know that I wanted to play the flute later on because of James Galway! But really don't know about the violin... I should really ask my mum. I know I was somewhat inspired when Nigel Kennedy came on the scene but that was after I had already started. Also violin lessons were offered at my school which is probably one reason that I knew what a violin even was aged 7. Probably the interest came about more indirectly from my obsession with ballet, which would mean that from ballet books I had a good idea of the main orchestral instruments

QUOTE

Also, at least you has parents who were prepared to invest in your musical life, by finding you a teacher and paying for your lessons!

...actually the teacher came to the school and the lessons were free till I was at least 14 or 15! But yes, they were happy for me to learn, and later on in my lessons my mum started to try and learn and also helped me with practising - but at the beginning it was definitely and impetus from me, the 7 year old. (she mostly started to learn because she worked at the school and when purse strings were tightened in education, we had to travel to a local school, and she got the job of taking us to and fro - so she thought she might as well have a go while she was there with us)

QUOTE

I'm positive that if my grandparents had found him a good teacher and supported him with practice he'd have at least become a competent pianist.

No quibble there - and I suspect most people have the potential to become "competent" at an instrument given the opportunity and the desire. I do question whether *any* child has the potential to become brilliant.

QUOTE

There are primitive cultures where every single child is enouraged to sing, play and dance.  They all sing play and dance.  In the Manouche gypsy tribe, virtually all the boys grow up learning to play guitar; there are countless virtuoso Manouche gypsy guitarists.  Surely this is nature being nurtured

No quibble there... does every gypsy child become a virtuoso though?

QUOTE

It's in all our natures, but it needs to be nurtured.  You may think you had no nurture, but unlike in my father's case, they listened to you, found you a teacher, paid for your lessons and then allowed you to practise!

I didn't mean to imply that I got no "nurture"! By no means! Although they didn't pay for the lesson or find a teacher, they did allow me to have lessons and put up with the racket a beginner violinist can create (though my dad very often would turn the TV on as a not-so-subtle hint to go elsewhere to do it). My point is more that my desire to play music didn't come from a musical home or a home where music played a huge part, or where either of my parents actually played an instrument or sang - it came from me. That is the nature part...

I don't doubt that all children could be a good deal better at music given the "nurture" side of things (I'm sure I would be had I been nurtured in the sense of singing and being sung too, and starting a musical education at a younger age even if I had still not learned the violin till I was 7) but what I am saying is that I don't think even the optimum amount of "nurture" will mean that all children grow up fantastic musicians. I think all of us are more gifted in some areas than others...

For example, I am an appalling sportswoman, always have been and always will be, and yet my friend Amy who had a similar upbringing, whose mum played the piano a bit, and who had the same access to music lessons and sports equipment alike as myself gave up the violin as soon as she reasonably could convince her mum she should (she probably played it for at least 6 years, maybe even 8 or 10, I forget exactly when she started and stopped - I know she never progressed beyond grade 3 or 4). With very similar upbringings and a slight advantage if anything on her side towards music, she's the sporty one and I'm the musician.

Yes, a suitable musical education will bring out the musician in all of us, as learning a language at an early age will help us to become better linguists, and the encouragement to do sports we like would very probably make us healthier and more sporty people; however all of us have or don't have the aptitude to be that little bit better at sports or languages or science or music, and all the nurture in the world won't change that.