Piano hand technique and posture Options

[Youngpianoteacher]

I am fairly new to teaching and I am wondering what other perople's experience is of hand technique in piano playing. By the way, this isn't a question limited to teachers, so please anyone with their thoughts feel free to reply...

I remember when I learnt I was simply told to keep my hand curved and to sometimes imagine a small ball in the palm of my hand. Other than this I have never really come across anything definitive, as most players tend to tell me as long as the sound isn't affected, it doesn't really matter.

Also there has been, as I understand, an evolution of thought between the 'finger-action' school of teaching, which devolves movement from the wrist and forearm and concentrates on the fingers to do nearly all the movement and the opposite which includes more movement across the whole arm. Is one way better? Does anyone know of any good material that discusses/tackles this issue?

Your thought and comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone.

[VH2]

I am fairly new to teaching and I am wondering what other perople's experience is of hand technique in piano playing. By the way, this isn't a question limited to teachers, so please anyone with their thoughts feel free to reply...

I remember when I learnt I was simply told to keep my hand curved and to sometimes imagine a small ball in the palm of my hand. Other than this I have never really come across anything definitive, as most players tend to tell me as long as the sound isn't affected, it doesn't really matter.

Also there has been, as I understand, an evolution of thought between the 'finger-action' school of teaching, which devolves movement from the wrist and forearm and concentrates on the fingers to do nearly all the movement and the opposite which includes more movement across the whole arm. Is one way better? Does anyone know of any good material that discusses/tackles this issue?

Your thought and comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone.

You could start with the chapters of Part VI of "The Well-Tempered Keyboard Teacher" for a fairly comprehensive overview of the history of piano pedagogy that is nevertheless quite brief. You will then have a better idea of where and how to dig more deeply into the subject.

It will be a far better guide than the handful of random aspects of technique that will be commented on in a forum like this

[Roseau]

Is it true that different countries teach different hand positions?
My oboe teacher (who is also a pianist) said something in my lesson the other day about the French school and the Russian school teaching completely different positions with the Russians favouring an almost flat hand and the French an almost exaggeratedly curved hand. I didn't want to waste my oboe lesson time talking about piano technique but have been wondering ever since whether what he said is true.

[fsharpminor]

Is it true that different countries teach different hand positions?
My oboe teacher (who is also a pianist) said something in my lesson the other day about the French school and the Russian school teaching completely different positions with the Russians favouring an almost flat hand and the French an almost exaggeratedly curved hand. I didn't want to waste my oboe lesson time talking about piano technique but have been wondering ever since whether what he said is true.

If you look at some of ther great Russian and French pianists of the past, there seemes to be an element of truth in that, eg Horowitz was really quite flat fingered.

[Roseau]

Is it true that different countries teach different hand positions?
My oboe teacher (who is also a pianist) said something in my lesson the other day about the French school and the Russian school teaching completely different positions with the Russians favouring an almost flat hand and the French an almost exaggeratedly curved hand. I didn't want to waste my oboe lesson time talking about piano technique but have been wondering ever since whether what he said is true.

If you look at some of ther great Russian and French pianists of the past, there seemes to be an element of truth in that, eg Horowitz was really quite flat fingered.

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

[VH2]

If you look at some of ther great Russian and French pianists of the past, there seemes to be an element of truth in that, eg Horowitz was really quite flat fingered.

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

To get a broader persepctive it is good to read the opinions of people that are famous as pianists or pianist+teacher rather than those that teach but do not perform.

Also to watch a variety of famous pianists on DVD or YouTube, and believe the evidence of your eyes.

[linda.ff]

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

Am I the only one who found that comment offensive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif)

[corenfa]

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

Am I the only one who found that comment offensive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif)

I read the comment as about general discussion not about this forum in particular - if the comment was directed at this particular discussion I would find it offensive, but I didn't think it was, but maybe the OP can clarify. I've certainly seen discussions of hand position in other places (other fora for example)

I have been at that "confused" stage of understanding piano technique myself, so can identify with it. Still reasonably confused but less than before I started lessons with my current teacher. Will post myself on hand position when I have more time, can't at the moment.

[Aquarelle]

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

Am I the only one who found that comment offensive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif)

I couldn't see anything offensive. I took Roseau's "everyone" simply to mean "a large number of people" - and my experience here in France is that there is an enormous emphasis on technique in piano playing. I even took on a pupil some years ago who had been forbidden (at the age of seven) to play pieces until she could "get her hand position right". In that particular case I threw hand position to the wind and we played music - any old how until the poor start had been forgotten.

I took the "confused" stage of understanding simply to mean that we may not all have thought the problem right through.

My own opinion is that with children any hand position that works will do but that one has at the same time to anticipate the problems that will arise as the child progresses and the music gets harder. I tend to deal with these problems one at a tuime. The present battle with some of mine is to keep the fingers, including the thumb well over the keys and in the playing position.

If I myself were having lessons I would expect my teacher to identify any elements of my hand position which could be improved in order to over come any particular difficulty. I can't imagine that I would be offered the same correction for a Bach fugue as for a piece by Liszt. I think it's all rather relative.

[VH2]

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

Am I the only one who found that comment offensive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif)

I read the comment as about general discussion not about this forum in particular - if the comment was directed at this particular discussion I would find it offensive, but I didn't think it was, but maybe the OP can clarify.

It was a general comment, not a criticism of this forum or any of its members. I thought I had also given a couple of helpful tips in the same post, but they seem to have been ignored.

For the record, I have been playing piano for a very long time, and I am still confused about many of the contradictory and mutually exclusive pronouncements on technique that have been made by performing pianists and teachers alike for the last 300 years or so (and are still being made).

To answer the question more directly (i.e. why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?) it is because what we are trying to achieve are control of force (hence of loudness) and of timing, in a way that is non-injurious. Hand position and finger shape affect control directly through the mechanics of the way the hand is used, and indirectly through the effect on the player's sensitivity (bringing more or less of the nerve-rich, sensitive pads of the last finger joint into contact with the keys).

[linda.ff]

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

Am I the only one who found that comment offensive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif)

I couldn't see anything offensive. I took Roseau's "everyone" simply to mean "a large number of people" - and my experience here in France is that there is an enormous emphasis on technique in piano playing. I even took on a pupil some years ago who had been forbidden (at the age of seven) to play pieces until she could "get her hand position right". In that particular case I threw hand position to the wind and we played music - any old how until the poor start had been forgotten.

I took the "confused" stage of understanding simply to mean that we may not all have thought the problem right through.

It wasn't Roseau's comment that I found offensive, it was VH2's reply to it. The suggestion that a "relatively small number" of people are confused did rather suggest that the majority knew what they were doing and it was only those who hadn't reached that enlightened stage who were concerned about getting the position right. I'm now very confused myself, since this did seem a bit of a put-down, particularly with the use of the word "chatter" - yet now VH2 him'serself claims to be confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[Youngpianoteacher]

As I can see it is a widely contested issue, which is why I thought it posed such an important discussion point and welcome all feedback.

With regards to piano technique, I did come across a Canadian, Alan Fraser, who talks in depth about the relationship between the physical stresses and strains on the body and talks briefly about different schools of teaching as he tries to impart his knowledge both as a pianist and pedagog.

Apart from his look at piano technique I have not found anything more substantial and it would be interesting to hear from other pianist/teachers as to their experiences of technique and how important they view it, with regards to what a previous person made, which is the outcome, ie. the music itself. Is it not enough that the music sounds correct? Otherwise at what point does the question of technique become mute?

[linda.ff]

As I can see it is a widely contested issue, which is why I thought it posed such an important discussion point and welcome all feedback.

With regards to piano technique, I did come across a Canadian, Alan Fraser, who talks in depth about the relationship between the physical stresses and strains on the body and talks briefly about different schools of teaching as he tries to impart his knowledge both as a pianist and pedagog.

Apart from his look at piano technique I have not found anything more substantial and it would be interesting to hear from other pianist/teachers as to their experiences of technique and how important they view it, with regards to what a previous person made, which is the outcome, ie. the music itself. Is it not enough that the music sounds correct? Otherwise at what point does the question of technique become mute?

I think if the music "sounds correct" in that the touch is ideal to produce the tone and articulation, the hand position doesn't matter - but what is "sounding correct"? I don't think anyone would alter a player's hand shape if it was producing good sounds, but often as a teacher we do have to "mould" a shape that will work. We also need to consider that modelling yourself on a player you admire - this is true of course in anything, possibly not even just in music - is not always a good thing - ever considered that Horowitz played brilliantly, not because his hand-shape was unusually flat, but in spite of that fact.

When I was teaching piano in a Saturday morning school the discussion came up among the iano teachers about their own early lessons, and one said "were you taught to play with a rigid or a loose wrist?" and I said my first teacher had done so little about technique with me that the looseness or otherwise of the wrist was never mentioned. But on teacher said they had been taught a very floppy loose wrist, while another had been very firmly taught to use a rigid wrist - so it's not only hand shape that has varied among piano educators.

[VH2]

So my next question, if this is true, is in that case why does everyone seem to attach so much importance to the "correct" hand position?

Not "everyone" does. A relatively small number of people that are at the "confused" stage of understanding piano technique are responsible for all the chatter.

Am I the only one who found that comment offensive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry.gif)

I couldn't see anything offensive. I took Roseau's "everyone" simply to mean "a large number of people" - and my experience here in France is that there is an enormous emphasis on technique in piano playing. I even took on a pupil some years ago who had been forbidden (at the age of seven) to play pieces until she could "get her hand position right". In that particular case I threw hand position to the wind and we played music - any old how until the poor start had been forgotten.

I took the "confused" stage of understanding simply to mean that we may not all have thought the problem right through.

It wasn't Roseau's comment that I found offensive, it was VH2's reply to it. The suggestion that a "relatively small number" of people are confused did rather suggest that the majority knew what they were doing and it was only those who hadn't reached that enlightened stage who were concerned about getting the position right. I'm now very confused myself, since this did seem a bit of a put-down, particularly with the use of the word "chatter" - yet now VH2 him'serself claims to be confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Which all goes to show how easy it is for someone to take offence when there is no body language or tone of voice to moderate the effect of the words.

Yes I am confused. I am confused by the diametrically opposed opinions on just about every aspect of piano playing. But I am not confused by finger shape. Sometimes the conventional lightly rounded fingers work best, and sometimes flat ones work best. [Horowitz used both]

[Aquarelle]

Hand position (and finger shape) affect control directly through the mechanics of the way the hand is used, and indirectly through the effect on the player's sensitivity (bringing more or less of the nreve-rich, sensitive pads of the last finger joint into contact with the keys).

There is a phrase here which I think I will find useful with my pupils. It's "the nerve rich sensitive pads of the last finger joint." I don't think I have ever used the argument that the finger tips are actually the most sensitive part of the hand. I suspect even a small child can be helped to understand that - they know that a splinter in the tip of the finger hurts a lot more than one elsewhere in the hand.

When the note learning is over and we get to the interpretation stage I often find the fortes are too hard and the crescendos and diminuendos too violent - not spread through the phrase evenly. Perhaps getting children to think about what we can fell through our finger tips is another way of getting to the right hand position for the phrase in question.