Naturally Musically talented and gifted children, does they exist, Options

[VH2]

There are a few things in your original post which are quite worrying to me. Have you asked the question: Should an 8 year old be putting in 2 hours practise a day?
How much time does she spend on her school homework?

Homework? It is absurd for 8 year olds to get homework. Finland has the most effective state education system in the world and children do not get homework until they are in their teens. I would much prefer a child to be spending 2 hours a day on music than on school homework. Far more good for them.

I do not deny that there are inborn differences between people, and that these can enable some to excel in some endeavours. But for the aspiring musician (or anyone aspiring to excellence in any field) "Gifted" and "Talented" are not very helpful concepts. Even if such things can be accurately assessed, they make little difference to what has to be done to learn music and develop performing skills. Everyone that wants to be a musician has to do the same work, which amongst other things includes: training the ear; learning the concepts of music; and for instrumentalists and singers training the nervous system in feats of extreme co-ordination. No-one achieves those without studying and practicing.

ABout the only benefit of being so-labelled that I can see is that the "Gifted" child is given more or better opportunities within the school system. And even that is a contentious issue. Some may be quicker on the uptake than others, but that can be for many reasons other than genetic gifts. What is more the quick learner in the early stages is not necessarily the one that will (or can) eventually reach the highest standard, so it is unfair of schools to deny the slower learners the same opportunities as the "Gifted".

For your daughter it is far more likely that she has unexceptional levels of "natural talent" (whatever that might be) but that she is good at music (and it has been noticed by the class teacher) because she practices 2 hours a day [Which, unlike Soprano101 I do not think is too much, provided that she enjoys it, chooses to do it for herself, and is working correctly so as not to injure herself].

Being labelled "Gifted" may flatter the ego, but it can even be counter-productive. The so-called "Gifted" child may come to expect achievement and improvement to come with little work. And indeed for a while it may, but one day they will reach the point where only determined effort will produce more progress, and they have not learned that habit. [There have been properly designed experiments showing that children who are told they are gifted achieve less than those who are praised for the effort they make].

So I agree with the others. So long as you have normal intelligence, hearing, and no motor-co-ordination problems, what really matter most are a love for music, a love for the instrument, and the right kind of practice. And in those areas your girl has made an excellent start.

[Seer_Green]

My advice to you, Onemoretime, is to do exactly what Barncottagecat did with her daughter and find the best teacher you can straight away. My son showed signs of musicality which I ignored, hoping it would go away! It didn't, and now I am annoyed with myself that I didn't get him a better teacher immediately.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Having the right teacher is the most important thing one the child can bond with as well as being very good at what they do.

I agree with that too, though I do wonder if we're jumping the gun a bit. I agree that it would be useful to get some more professional opinions on the OP's daughter's playing/singing from either her own or other teachers. To rush out and seek to find the best teacher you can immediately seems a bit hasty. So far, the only opinion seems to have come from a inexperienced school teacher.

[Chris H]

I would have thought that if the child is keen enough to practise two hours a day and is aiming for a JD at eleven, it would be a very good idea to get the best teacher possible so that the child is learning with the correct technique and that the teacher is teaching at a pace that is appropriate for the child. We had years with a teacher who knew next to nothing about saxophone technique, and didn't realise that my son was playing all the pieces in his exam books rather than just the one that was set for him.

[notmusimum]

My advice to you, Onemoretime, is to do exactly what Barncottagecat did with her daughter and find the best teacher you can straight away. My son showed signs of musicality which I ignored, hoping it would go away! It didn't, and now I am annoyed with myself that I didn't get him a better teacher immediately.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Having the right teacher is the most important thing one the child can bond with as well as being very good at what they do.

I agree with that too, though I do wonder if we're jumping the gun a bit. I agree that it would be useful to get some more professional opinions on the OP's daughter's playing/singing from either her own or other teachers. To rush out and seek to find the best teacher you can immediately seems a bit hasty. So far, the only opinion seems to have come from a inexperienced school teacher.

I wasn't making any judgement on the childs current teacher it's just that parents often don't keep a close eye on that sort of thing. I know my child has suffered in the past from lack of guidance and it's something I'm perhaps a bit too concious of. I know parents who should be more proactive where teaching is concerned and it's holding the child back.

[Seer_Green]

My advice to you, Onemoretime, is to do exactly what Barncottagecat did with her daughter and find the best teacher you can straight away. My son showed signs of musicality which I ignored, hoping it would go away! It didn't, and now I am annoyed with myself that I didn't get him a better teacher immediately.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Having the right teacher is the most important thing one the child can bond with as well as being very good at what they do.

I agree with that too, though I do wonder if we're jumping the gun a bit. I agree that it would be useful to get some more professional opinions on the OP's daughter's playing/singing from either her own or other teachers. To rush out and seek to find the best teacher you can immediately seems a bit hasty. So far, the only opinion seems to have come from a inexperienced school teacher.

I wasn't making any judgement on the childs current teacher it's just that parents often don't keep a close eye on that sort of thing. I know my child has suffered in the past from lack of guidance and it's something I'm perhaps a bit too concious of. I know parents who should be more proactive where teaching is concerned and it's holding the child back.

Absolutely - wasn't criticising anyone, it just occured to me that we're talking about getting the 'best teacher you can straight away' (Chris H) based on the opinion seemingly of one person.

[notmusimum]

Absolutely - wasn't criticising anyone, it just occured to me that we're talking about getting the 'best teacher you can straight away' (Chris H) based on the opinion seemingly of one person.

I'm a bit sensitive about teaching and there are things i'd like to change for my daughter. I'm trying to work round it currently. In the past I let her be far too independent when she should have had teacher support. Seeing the young recorder player last night brings that home to me more than anything.

I've done some stupid things in allowing daughter to continue lessons with a piano player who claimed to have grade 8 recorder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif). It only lasted a term and it made me look for a specialist teacher but someone else would have allowed that arrangement to continue.

Some of my daughters friends are learning sax with people who are clarinet specialists (more than one person and several teachers) and you can see that reflected in the playing of the pupils.

I totally accept it's hard to get the right teacher in the early stages so is recognising when it's time to move on. I wouldn't be prepared to accept second best again.

[Chris H]

I have had similar experiences to Notmusimum. I just think that if a child is practising two hours a day of their own volition at that age and talking of going to music college, then they will have the determination and the aptitude to succeed, and if they haven't, the teacher who the parents are approaching will tell them. Musicians are made, not born, and it seems to me that this child is showing all
the signs of being able to become a musician.

[onemoretime]

I think as far as teachers are concerned we are ok, and with hubby being specialised sax teacher we both are on the ball where everything but technical instrumental stuff is concerned and then we ask for clarification if they require us to observe her practice. Although he does help with breathing, good practice and general musicianship.
Practising is good as we both help with that and she seems to have motivated herself most of the time, and of course as he teaches from home she gets to hear improvement in other peoples playing.
Her violin teacher went to NRCM and her singing teacher I'm not sure about but whatever she has said so far seems to make sense. One is private the other from the LEA.
I can see the point in seeking good teachers but then I don't believe its cut and dried, sometimes the best on paper aren't necessarily the best players.
I know its early days yet but as I previously said (maybe other posts), I see it as our job to give her the opportunity to reach a level where she is able to at least audition. Then it's up to her and what she wants, really. She does know it takes work and effort but we never dress things up and are honest with her.
Thank you all for your views, support and encouragement. Its so good to be able to talk to other like minded musically interested people. My problem now is that of being a bad role model, having stopped at grade 5. Oh well better think of getting my clarinet out of its case !!!!!.

[notmusimum]

Having never played at all I think I must be the worst role model ever (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You sound like you are doing all the right things and I completely agree that the best on paper is not always the best teacher.

[ansatz496]

...
I can see the point in seeking good teachers but then I don't believe its cut and dried, sometimes the best on paper aren't necessarily the best players.
...

And sometimes the best players aren't the best teachers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chris H]

The violin teacher sounds fine if she went to RNCM. I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to teachers, as Musucstand's first teacher doesn't really play the sax.

[onemoretime]

...
I can see the point in seeking good teachers but then I don't believe its cut and dried, sometimes the best on paper aren't necessarily the best players.
...

And sometimes the best players aren't the best teachers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes would totally agree with this too. I guess youv'e heard the same from a semi pro playing in a pub, spouting yes I'll teach you everything I know. Then realising they probably know very little. Lol.

[BerkshireMum]

The violin teacher sounds fine if she went to RNCM. I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to teachers, as Musucstand's first teacher doesn't really play the sax.

BerkshireSon's first teacher didn't play the clarinet - he was a flautist who was also pretty competent on saxophone and piano. Very musical chap but hopeless on clarinet technique. After three years of his tuition BS had so many faults in technique to correct, but at least he knew what a musical performance should sound like. In the end that was perhaps the more important aspect, though it did take several years to relearn technique. At that time the school music provider would only give you a specialist teacher once you had grade 5 practical and theory.

It's unfortunate that school music providers often expect instrumental woodwind teachers to teach any woodwind instrument. It probably happens to some extent with brass too, but I've never seen a violinist being expected to teach cello.

[KTViola]

It's unfortunate that school music providers often expect instrumental woodwind teachers to teach any woodwind instrument. It probably happens to some extent with brass too, but I've never seen a violinist being expected to teach cello.

Really? As a viola player, I had to teach violin, viola & cello when I worked for the county music service. They would have liked me to teach double bass as well, but I knew when I was beaten! Mind you - colleagues of mine certainly taught all members of the string family.

I did try to get any talented young cellists transferred to a 'proper' cello teacher as soon as possible, or talked to their parents and quietly suggested that they might like to look for a private teacher.

Bit baffled by people not wanting to find the best possible teacher as soon as they can though. Why wouldn't you look for the best teacher if you're going to take music remotely seriously?

I'm in the very early stages of bringing up my own child at the moment and starting to think about various classes. As a musician, I'm checking out the credentials and methods of anyone running music based classes, but for physical activity things, I'll go with the nearest nice person until/ unless my son shows any aptitude, at which point I'd do more research, and find the best possible teacher / coach / class.

[violincjj]

The violin teacher sounds fine if she went to RNCM. I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to teachers, as Musucstand's first teacher doesn't really play the sax.

She probably is fine. She can probably play the violin really well! But she may not be the best possible teacher for this particular kid, that depends on the personalities and learning styles of the teacher and student doesn't it? One cannot know that the 'fit' is good simply because of where the teacher studied.

It's worth making an effort and a half to find the best possible match of teacher for your child if you have the energy, time, money and determination. I know that I am not the best teacher for some kids. I am good at wild boys and slow learners, I am less good with brilliant but quiet girls!