Relative Minors And Arising Problems Options

[susiejean]

My 15 year old pupil has came to me last October after losing her piano teacher. She had achieved a merit for Grade 5 practical and was obviously aware that she needed to get through Grade 5 theory before she could progress any further. Unfortunatly she had only ever worked through the Grade 1 and 2 work books and so we had a mountain to climb as she was looking to sit the exam in Nov 06. Obviosly we did not make it and are now looking at June, but as we are still working through the Grade 4 book I am starting to panic. The huge stumbling block appears to be being able recognise key signatures and relative minors. Without the ability to do this she is unable to answer many of the questions. I'm finding it very difficult to put it across in a way she understands as I found my own way to deal with it and didn't find it hard.
I've tried all the usual suspects- learn the Father Charles rhymes, relative minor 3 semitones down from major, last sharp in the group is 1 semitone down from the major key, back one flat in the group to get the major flat key etc. but it's not working for her and we're running out of time. Worse still she's right in the middle of her standard grades so I'm trying not to push her too hard as they are ultimatly more important, but I'm worried that if we don't get this theory out of the way that she will get fed up and I will lose her. She loves playing, but absolutly abhors the theory.
Help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[sarah-flute]

SusieJean, have you looked at any of the alternatives? Such as G5 practical musicianship or grade 5 jazz piano?

Might be a more realistic prospect if she really loathes theory that much and finds it hard. Obviously it is good to have the theory knowledge under her belt, but must be worth looking at the alternates if her actually passing the exam looks like flogging a dead horse...

[susiejean]

SusieJean, have you looked at any of the alternatives? Such as G5 practical musicianship or grade 5 jazz piano?

Might be a more realistic prospect if she really loathes theory that much and finds it hard. Obviously it is good to have the theory knowledge under her belt, but must be worth looking at the alternates if her actually passing the exam looks like flogging a dead horse...

Had thought about that as well, but unfortunatly it's the old peer thing agian. Her older sister sat all the AB exams and worse still, she had almost finished by her age, so I think a lot of it is 'proving' that she can do it as well. What she doesn't seem to recognise is that her sister is now going to Uni to study music and that she herself is not pursuing a career in music at all, so it wouldn't really have mattered. She hates jazz and is definately more a classical person. I have tried to instill into her that she need only pass the theory and that a distinction is not necessary, but she is starting to become depressed about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[SueHM]

What about doing Trinity Guildhall exams (I don't think grade 5 theory is required for practical higher grades)? She could do grade 6 Trinity while you are plugging away at Grade 5 theory then go back to AB once the theory is sorted.

[susiejean]

What about doing Trinity Guildhall exams (I don't think grade 5 theory is required for practical higher grades)? She could do grade 6 Trinity while you are plugging away at Grade 5 theory then go back to AB once the theory is sorted.

Had considered that option as I've heard quite a few people do take this route. Not sure how to go about entering tey're syllabus though. From what I've seen of they're exam books, the pieces are not quite so hard but the scales look pretty hairy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Phil Dixon]

What I do with my students is to encourage them to construct the scales for themselves, from first principles. This is how we do it;

Take some manuscript paper and write out the C major scale.
Take the 5th note (G). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (F#) . Scale is G. Sharp is F#.
Take the 5th note (D). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (C#) . Scale is D. Sharps are F#,C#.
Take the 5th note (A). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (G#) . Scale is A. Sharps are F#,C#, G#.
Take the 5th note (E). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (D#) . Scale is E. Sharps are F#,C#, G#,D#.
Take the 5th note (B). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (A#) . Scale is B. Sharps are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#.
Take the 5th note (F#). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (E#) . Scale is F#. Sharps are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#.
Take the 5th note (C#). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (B#) . Scale is C#. Sharps are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,B#.

Write out another C major scale.
Take the 4th note (F). Write out a scale. Flatten the fourth (Bb). Scale is F, Flat is Bb.
Take the 4th note (Bb). Write out a scale. Flatten the fourth (Eb). Scale is Bb, Flats are Bb.Eb.
Take the 4th note (Eb). Write out a scale. Flatten the fourth (Ab). Scale is Eb, Flats are Bb.Eb,Ab.
Take the 4th note (Ab). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Db). Scale is Ab, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db.
Take the 4th note (Db). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Gb). Scale is Db, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb.
Take the 4th note (Gb). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Cb). Scale is Gb, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb.
Take the 4th note (Cb). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Fb). Scale is Cb, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb,Fb.

Only then, once the student has witten them all out, do I then go back explain that they only need to learn 2 rules. We then start looking at the patterns and recite the infamous 'Father Charles' mnemonic.

For minors, another simple rule can easily be created;
'Take a major scale (eg C), leave the key signature the same and write out a scale from the 6th note. Scale is A minor natural'.

For harmonic minor;
'Sharpen the 7th.'

For melodic minor;
'Sharpen the 6th and 7th ascending, un-sharpen them descending.'

So there you have it. All you need to know about scales and key signatures on one sheet of A4!

(You can create new rules for different modes using the same as above).

Please check the above, I wrote this out in a hurry - there may be mistakes!

[jod]

What I do with my students is to encourage them to construct the scales for themselves, from first principles. This is how we do it;

Take some manuscript paper and write out the C major scale.
Take the 5th note (G). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (F#) . Scale is G. Sharp is F#.
Take the 5th note (D). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (C#) . Scale is D. Sharps are F#,C#.
Take the 5th note (A). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (G#) . Scale is A. Sharps are F#,C#, G#.
Take the 5th note (E). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (D#) . Scale is E. Sharps are F#,C#, G#,D#.
Take the 5th note (B). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (A#) . Scale is B. Sharps are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#.
Take the 5th note (F#). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (E#) . Scale is F#. Sharps are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#.
Take the 5th note (C#). Write out a scale. Sharpen the seventh (B#) . Scale is C#. Sharps are F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,B#.

Write out another C major scale.
Take the 4th note (F). Write out a scale. Flatten the fourth (Bb). Scale is F, Flat is Bb.
Take the 4th note (Bb). Write out a scale. Flatten the fourth (Eb). Scale is Bb, Flats are Bb.Eb.
Take the 4th note (Eb). Write out a scale. Flatten the fourth (Ab). Scale is Eb, Flats are Bb.Eb,Ab.
Take the 4th note (Ab). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Db). Scale is Ab, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db.
Take the 4th note (Db). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Gb). Scale is Db, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb.
Take the 4th note (Gb). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Cb). Scale is Gb, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb.
Take the 4th note (Cb). Write out a scale. Faltten the fourth (Fb). Scale is Cb, Flats are Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb,Fb.

Only then, once the student has witten them all out, do I then go back explain that they only need to learn 2 rules. We then start looking at the patterns and recite the infamous 'Father Charles' mnemonic.

For minors, another simple rule can easily be created;
'Take a major scale (eg C), leave the key signature the same and write out a scale from the 6th note. Scale is A minor natural'.

For harmonic minor;
'Sharpen the 7th.'

For melodic minor;
'Sharpen the 6th and 7th ascending, un-sharpen them descending.'

So there you have it. All you need to know about scales and key signatures on one sheet of A4!

(You can create new rules for different modes using the same as above).

Please check the above, I wrote this out in a hurry - there may be mistakes!

I do something similar but deliberately arrange it as a clock face. Te other thing for pianists playing melodic minor scales, go up like the major but with a minor third, go down like the key signature. Somehow that sticks better than the sharpening and flattening idea..

[moomalade]

You could also draw the circle of fifths and get her to learn the patterns (sorry if this has already been said), I know that this helped me immensely.

[sbhoa]

To reinforce the related keys I always ask my students to practice them together (well, one after the other anyway).
By the time they are learning to play minor scales they usually have enough scales to want to break the task down and play a few each day on a rota system and I advise keeping related keys together.

[Robodoc]

OK, I'm now ignorant: What is the Father Charles Ryhme?

I don't have any problems with relative minors, so I've forgotten how I learned it in the first place: Once the building is up you take away the scaffolding I suppose.

[Robodoc]

Ignore this one: I typed send (or submit or whatever) twice too quickly!

OK, I'm now ignorant: What is the Father Charles Ryhme?

I don't have any problems with relative minors, so I've forgotten how I learned it in the first place: Once the building is up you take away the scaffolding I suppose.

[maggiemay]

Ignore this one: I typed send (or submit or whatever) twice too quickly!

OK, I'm now ignorant: What is the Father Charles Ryhme?

I don't have any problems with relative minors, so I've forgotten how I learned it in the first place: Once the building is up you take away the scaffolding I suppose.

Father Charles is the order of the sharps - Father Charles Goes Down And Eats Bananas (or some variation of that -)
I quite like Father Christmas Gave Dad An Electric Blanket - which someone else on the forums quoted a while back - sorry I can't remember who to attribute it to. It's particularly neat because there's a reverse one for the flats - Blanket Explodes And Dad Gets Cold Feet.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I like your building / scaffolding analogy. I think with keys and theory questions we teachers have the whole of the jigsaw puzzle on view and it's knowing which bit of the picture they need at any one time that's tricky. If you want the relative minor you go down three semitones. If you want the tonic minor you add on three flats or take off three sharps etc etc - it depends on what the question is how you need to get there.

[sbhoa]

I only learnt all the thnings that are meant to help you remember this stuff quite recently.
Originally I just learnt key signatures etc as I went along. I wasn't learning for exams it was just the stuff that came in as part of the package of learning to play.

I think I'd wanted to learn for so long that I just took in everything I was taught when I got the opportunity.

[Squidward]

My 15 year old pupil has came to me last October after losing her piano teacher. She had achieved a merit for Grade 5 practical and was obviously aware that she needed to get through Grade 5 theory before she could progress any further. Unfortunatly she had only ever worked through the Grade 1 and 2 work books and so we had a mountain to climb as she was looking to sit the exam in Nov 06. Obviosly we did not make it and are now looking at June, but as we are still working through the Grade 4 book I am starting to panic. The huge stumbling block appears to be being able recognise key signatures and relative minors. Without the ability to do this she is unable to answer many of the questions. I'm finding it very difficult to put it across in a way she understands as I found my own way to deal with it and didn't find it hard.
I've tried all the usual suspects- learn the Father Charles rhymes, relative minor 3 semitones down from major, last sharp in the group is 1 semitone down from the major key, back one flat in the group to get the major flat key etc. but it's not working for her and we're running out of time. Worse still she's right in the middle of her standard grades so I'm trying not to push her too hard as they are ultimatly more important, but I'm worried that if we don't get this theory out of the way that she will get fed up and I will lose her. She loves playing, but absolutely abhors the theory.
Help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Maybe you should just let her to continue to explore the music & she may end up learning the basics such as recognising the keys by playing different pieces. Like when you give her a new piece, you make casually ask her what the key of the piece is? Or get her to analyse it briefly like the piece going to the relative minor, dominant etc.

It worked with me beacue I couldn't recognise keys, or terms but my playing music, I've now learnt them and have progressed so far since then & I love music to bits! Theory is still not my favourite bit but its bearable & I've learnt to appreciate it.

Good luck!

[sarah-flute]

SusieJean, have you seen the "Take Five and Pass" book? It comes well recommended from many posters - I've not used it myself.

As far as I understand it, it's not great at the "getting them to reeeeeeeally understand theory" part, but brilliant at the "getting students through the G5 exam anyway" part. So not ideal but for your student it may just help her over that "hump" and you can work to make sure she absorbs the relevant knowledge as she learns more music.