A=440 Vs A=442?/barrel Length, How does it affect relative tuning??? (clari) Options

[Tequila]

Hi,

I've discovered that my clari seems somewhat sharp, particularly up the top end.

In band sessions I end up pulling out quite considerably.

Having had a session with my electronic tuner I discovered that the amount by which I was sharp was not consistent. It was in tune to slightly flat from cold on the bottom E, middle C spot on to slightly sharp. C an octave up is more sharp and the altissimo C was very sharp.

I'd been considering many issues for this including key seating and barrel length.


Having done a spot of research I find that my clarinet a Buffet E13 is tuned to 442Hz, The R13 that my band colleague has is tuned to 440 and some of the top models have 2 barrels - One of 65mm and one of 66mm to tune to either 440 or 442.

My barrel is 65mm

Having calibrated my tuner to A = 442 I'm much more in tune generally speaking and the top end was even registering a little flat tonight.

So my question is does the frequency that A is tuned to affect the relative tuning of the instrument too?

Can I retune mine to A=440 by pulling out the barrel a mm or does that not work?

Any general advice when playing alongside others whose instruments are obviously tuned to a different frequency??

Why do some instrument manufacturers tune their instruments to different frequencies and why are there two frequencies for A???? I don't get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

If I decide to look at getting a second barrel at some point to help with all this what do I look for? Do I need to get a Buffet barrel?? Do the ones for the different models fit? I don't want to lose the lovely sound quality my clari has ....

Honestly though I don't think I have the cash for a new barrel right now anyway.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clarinet.gif)

I do hope this makes sense and isn't all unintelligible waffle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Flossie]

On the flute, if you pull out too far then you end up with each 'octave' sounding like more than an 8th. If it's like tuning on the flute (and I would expect it to be) then pulling out increases the length of each register. This can mean that the notes at the bottom are flat and the ones at the top are sharp.

[sarah123]

2Hz isn't very much, so I wouldn't have thought that pulling it out that amount would really change the relative tuning.

I think they make them 'sharp' because it's always possible to tune to play with slightly flatter instruments, but you can't go the other way. So if you had a 440Hz instrument that was on the flat side, you'd be stuck being out of tune. Interestingly, my 442 recorder seems to always be flatter than any piano I've played with (they were definitely kept up to pitch, which presumably was 440). I got a real shock when I went to the SRP and was told I was sharp! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Maybe recorders are just weird lol.

[barry-clari]

The most susceptible notes to being out of tune relative to other notes when you pull the barrel out are the throat tones (second line G - third line Bb), so those are the ones to really keep an eye on. You can pull the barrel out and it'll probably be acceptable : not ideal, but in most instances probably get-away-with-able.

The barrel can make a small difference to tone, best thing to do is the same advice that I'd give for trying new instruments/mouthpieces : try a few, see what you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CJB]

The reasons for 440 and 442 are somewhat unclear but in most of Europe 442 Hz is the standard. I believe that manufacturers often supply 1 model to the European Market so for them 442 makes more sense.

I have 2 barrels for my cl. I can play at 440 and 442 with both of them there is about 2 mm difference in how far I have to pull out. Both need to be pulled out a little when fully warmed up but any spreading of the relative pitches is easily lipped in (less than with changing dynamics). I prefer my instruments to be a little sharp. I do a lot of doubling and frequently swap onto instruments that have gone cold. I find it much more work to lip everything up than to lip down as the instrument warms up.

[Tequila]

On the flute, if you pull out too far then you end up with each 'octave' sounding like more than an 8th. If it's like tuning on the flute (and I would expect it to be) then pulling out increases the length of each register. This can mean that the notes at the bottom are flat and the ones at the top are sharp.

Now that would fit!!! Thanks Flossie.

Sarah123: thanks also for your comments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


So what to do about it??

I've tried pulling out at different joints but am unsure as to which works best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/anyone.gif)

[barry-clari]

I've tried pulling out at different joints but am unsure as to which works best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/anyone.gif)

Not between the two main joints, anywhere else is probably OK.

To be honest, the chances are that a small pulling out between the barrel and the top joint will probably suit for most purposes : just keep an eye on those throat notes.

[RedClarinet]

I think Dawn is on to something, i dont know how to fix it but the principle behind it works.
Physics (or atleast A-level physics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ) does fit in with your problem. Because if you tried to superimpose to waves of differant frequencies, they would be (only slightly) out of phase with each other, creating some very discorded sound when played together.
Its like tuning a radio(ish) if you go two Hz in the wrong direction you end up on "Headbangin' Fm" 2hz the other way is "Classic Fm". Its only a small change but makes alot of differance.

A differant barrel could solve the problem by making it play to 440HZ, but pulling out for now i reckon will suffice.

Sorry I cant help but that may be a reason why? -(even though it doesnt help sorry)

EDIT: I never realised that everyone else posted only 5 mins before me, cause i was thinking of the answer lol.

[CJB]

Just had another thought re band tuning. What is your tuning procedure?

What note are you tuning to? If concert Bb and only checking the C above the break that is often a relatively sharp note. I prefer tuning by checking 3 octaves of the tuning note and intervals of a 3rd 5th and 4th and pulling out (just the barrel) to get these within easy lipping range.

Its like tuning a radio(ish) if you go two Hz in the wrong direction you end up on "Headbangin' Fm" 2hz the other way is "Classic Fm". Its only a small change but makes alot of differance.

minor point 2Hz would make no difference on an FM radio. Stations are separated by MHz.

[RedClarinet]

well clarinet are abit more sensitive than a radio

[Tequila]

On the flute, if you pull out too far then you end up with each 'octave' sounding like more than an 8th. If it's like tuning on the flute (and I would expect it to be) then pulling out increases the length of each register. This can mean that the notes at the bottom are flat and the ones at the top are sharp.

Now that would fit!!! Thanks Flossie.

Sarah123: thanks also for your comments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


So what to do about it??

I've tried pulling out at different joints but am unsure as to which works best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/anyone.gif)

Hey we all posted together this am and I didn't see the other posts. Thanks all for the comments.

I usually tune using a C but over 2 octaves. However, honestly, I tend to check myself roughly against the principal player and then play and the tweak as necessary.

[Roseau]

The reasons for 440 and 442 are somewhat unclear but in most of Europe 442 Hz is the standard. I believe that manufacturers often supply 1 model to the European Market so for them 442 makes more sense.

My oboe teacher tunes to 442 (and claims it is standard throughout France).

One of my wind bands tunes to 440 but this is because the conductor believes that everyone will play sharper once they are warmed up and that after a couple of pieces we will be at 442. Unfortunately it just seems to mean that I become increasingly flatter than everyone else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (And the oboe has very little lee way for tuning anything since all you can do is pull the reed out a little - if you pull it out too much notes stop working).

[Tequila]

The reasons for 440 and 442 are somewhat unclear but in most of Europe 442 Hz is the standard. I believe that manufacturers often supply 1 model to the European Market so for them 442 makes more sense.

My oboe teacher tunes to 442 (and claims it is standard throughout France).

One of my wind bands tunes to 440 but this is because the conductor believes that everyone will play sharper once they are warmed up and that after a couple of pieces we will be at 442. Unfortunately it just seems to mean that I become increasingly flatter than everyone else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (And the oboe has very little lee way for tuning anything since all you can do is pull the reed out a little - if you pull it out too much notes stop working).

I thought it was standard in Orchestras at least to tune TO the oboe for exactly that reason .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Roseau]

I thought it was standard in Orchestras at least to tune TO the oboe for exactly that reason .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So did I ...
until I started playing the oboe and realised how easy it is to play out of tune if you don't get the breath pressure or the embouchure precisely right.

Apparently the real reason (according to my teacher) is that there the oboe has the greatest number of harmonics and is therefore the easiest instrument for other instruments to tune to.

[Arundodonuts]

I thought it was standard in Orchestras at least to tune TO the oboe for exactly that reason .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So did I ...
until I started playing the oboe and realised how easy it is to play out of tune if you don't get the breath pressure or the embouchure precisely right.

The conductor of the orchestra I recently joined looked a bit bemused when, after saying "you need to pull out the reed a bit" I played him the same note at a different pitch without touching the reed. Of course it only "sounds right" when it "is right" but my novices ear isn't brilliant yet at detecting the fine nuances of timbre that indicate when it is properly in tune.