Hymns and the Visitor, Any suggestions? Options

[mel2]

"Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit"


This is easy. You give them a copy of Canon B20. That simply written piece of legislation makes it quite obvious where the control of the music lies.

I'm really grateful to have been given this information and to have it nestling safely in case of need, but in my situation I'm trying not to quote Canon law, lest it be construed as an hostile act. Somehow, if I ever come over all officious, the Furies are let loose and bite me on the ###.

[A.U.K]

"Give me oil in my lamp" gives me the shudders! We are often tasked with singing it at weddings, as bride and groom sang it at school.

Me too, but for a different reason. I can't sing it without thinking that there must be a parody somewhere that begins, "Give me lead in my pencil". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Too funny..very good and I'm quite sure you are right...

I can see now why I left the church years ago..The politics and back biting, unrest and dischord are rife. Comittees, Parochial Church Councils, flower arrangers..its all too much to be bourne

Mel2 I'm sorry you are having such a trying time..Is it honestly worth the annual stipend I wonder..with or without Canon Law it sounds like a headache.. stuff the autocrats, layreaders and interfering clergy pack it in, have a full english breakfast and read the paper.

Andrew

[jod]

"Anyone know how to convince PCC that this and many other things are outside their remit"


This is easy. You give them a copy of Canon B20. That simply written piece of legislation makes it quite obvious where the control of the music lies.

I'm really grateful to have been given this information and to have it nestling safely in case of need, but in my situation I'm trying not to quote Canon law, lest it be construed as an hostile act. Somehow, if I ever come over all officious, the Furies are let loose and bite me on the ###.

Mel I have the contact details for one member of the Clergy who due to circumstances is now spending his time at the Churches expense helping people who end up the wrong side of their PCC or diocese.

It didn't work out for him or his wife, and his organist is now much more happily employed elsewhere. What happened was a scandal. We were caught up in the cross-fire (hubby and me) and some important paperwork went missing. However, they were not to blame, and they have both offered to help particularly me who as the non-ordained party had no easy means of redress clear my name. I'm sure they would be able to help you too.

[Swell Box]

"Give me oil in my lamp" gives me the shudders! We are often tasked with singing it at weddings, as bride and groom sang it at school.

Me too, but for a different reason. I can't sing it without thinking that there must be a parody somewhere that begins, "Give me lead in my pencil". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Too funny..very good and I'm quite sure you are right...

I can see now why I left the church years ago..The politics and back biting, unrest and dischord are rife. Comittees, Parochial Church Councils, flower arrangers..its all too much to be bourne

Mel2 I'm sorry you are having such a trying time..Is it honestly worth the annual stipend I wonder..with or without Canon Law it sounds like a headache.. stuff the autocrats, layreaders and interfering clergy pack it in, have a full english breakfast and read the paper.

Andrew

You are so right Andrew, but it doesn't have to be that way, and isn't that way in most places.

We felt that we were treated appallingly in our own parish, to the point that my wife and daughter refused to darken the doors of any church for a while. This was all because my wife, who was Church Treasurer at one time, fell foul of a small group (read clique) of people, which just happened to include a megalomaniac Lay Reader with 'anger management' issues. I would not like to say more about this on an open forum, but I think you can guess.

Having been brought up in the church as boy chorister I found it rather more difficult to give up, although if I am honest I am probably more motivated by our son's musical interests than anything much higher at present.

However, we have been lucky enough to find another church some distance from home which is far more open, honest and welcoming. The people may be less well off, but they are much kinder and more generous in all respects. They also have a nice organ which needed playing! My wife and daughter are also taking more interest these days, and are always made to feel welcome when they choose to attend, which wasn't the case in our own parish.

I think the moral here is not to be deceived by outside appearances. An ancient and attractive church in a well-heeled picture postcard village is not always as friendly as it looks.

SB

[Stephen Barber]

I can see now why I left the church years ago..The politics and back biting, unrest and dischord are rife. Comittees, Parochial Church Councils, flower arrangers..its all too much to be bourne

Mel2 I'm sorry you are having such a trying time..Is it honestly worth the annual stipend I wonder..with or without Canon Law it sounds like a headache.. stuff the autocrats, layreaders and interfering clergy pack it in, have a full english breakfast and read the paper.

Andrew

I think Andrew's right - if the situation in a church is unchristian then get out.

I must have lived a charmed life - I haven't experienced a church like this (problems, yes, of course) and I wouldn't have any part in it.

I can't understand how any church can not be a Christian community. That doesn't mean that all agree, or that all get on with each other easily, but much this stuff I read about fills me with despair and disbelief.

I think the Church of England (especially) is in a very difficult place at the moment, for all sorts of reasons. I would hate to be a Vicar - trying to decide how to help the church grow, and how to attract young people. (Personally I think the best way is to give them something to do, for example singing in a choir that makes the most of it's resources, and sings some decent music, but also takes into account the needs of the congregation). But how do we drag in a significant number of those who have no church connection at all?

Far more important than quarreling over hymns.

Has anyone mentioned prayer as part of the solution? I find praying helps me get things in perspective.

Again, I think anyone who's got these sort of problems should pack it in. The incumbent is in charge - any problems - talk to him and sort it out. (Message boards aren't the answer!)

Anyone who is doing the job because they need the money, then they should do what the Vicar tells them and put up with it.

[mel2]

Mel2 I'm sorry you are having such a trying time..Is it honestly worth the annual stipend I wonder..with or without Canon Law it sounds like a headache.. stuff the autocrats, layreaders and interfering clergy pack it in, have a full english breakfast and read the paper.

Andrew

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Ooooo! Get thee behind me, Andrew...

Thankfully, all this is a very small part of my life and isn't upsetting me much apart from resenting the time I expend that seems to achieve little. For example, winding up the choir practice tonight I was thanking the ladies for all their hard work and patience, complimenting them on how they had done and, as an aside, said "let's hope it doesn't all get chucked out like last week!"

"But", said one lady, "it was a VERY nice service, I thought - very suitable for ordinary people - not all deep and difficult."

No annoyance about any of it; obviously lightweight tosh is what people like. And Give Me Oil In My Lamp.

It's easy to imagine that things are like this all the time but fortunately it is not; this is a storm in a teacup but it has helped me to decide what I will put up with in the future, and it will be much easier to smile, say Good Luck and walk out now I have rehearsed it in my mind, should Chummy try this again.

Now I just have to find the woolly caterpillar songs because that's what brings the young families in, right?

[A.U.K]

Whilst I stand by what I say..with hindsight I did rather jump in on what is a very serious discussion and was rather flippant in dealing with a subject that the OP and others hold very dear to their hearts and for that I apologise unreservedly..


However..I come from a religeous background (extremely religeous to the point of suffocation) and I am sorry to say my families bigotry, hypocrisy and downright fakery was enough to put me off religeon of all denominations..I have to say that dressing things up as christian is all well and good but the sheer spite and venom I saw demonstrated by so called christain people was in total opposition to what the church is supposed to be all about i.e. Love and Compassion so much so I would rather stay as far from organised religeon as is humanly possible..

It is plain to see that from this thread nothing or very little has changed in the church or the hearts and minds of some involved.


Hello again Mel..sorry my sweet for my ill timed post and my rather heavy heart but these wretched people in the church ruin it for so many..Im heartened to see you have kept a sense of humour..go get em honey and take no prsioners..play up a storm and give em h.e.l.l...(no pun intended) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Andrew

[Swell Box]

I can't understand how any church can not be a Christian community. That doesn't mean that all agree, or that all get on with each other easily, but much this stuff I read about fills me with despair and disbelief.

Again, I think anyone who's got these sort of problems should pack it in. The incumbent is in charge - any problems - talk to him and sort it out. (Message boards aren't the answer!)

The main problem, I have found, is that too many people in the church are unable to disagree over anything without falling out and making things personal. In my business life I can disagree with people where millions of pounds are at stake, or even tear lumps out of each other in court over technical issues, but we can still go for a pint in the evening and help each other out in other ways. Why can it not be that way in a church?

You are right that one should be able to talk to the incumbent, but all too often the incumbent is afraid to become involved for fear that those who are trying to push their own agendas will take their ball home.

SB

[jod]

As I intimated, my family has also been the victim of Church politics and at the highest level. We also know of Clergy and laity who have left their Parishes because of in-fights.

I find it tragic. Both my husband and I had been involved in Church life all our lives and lived very active Christian lives. Other couples we know have had given many more years of service to the Church and inspired even more people.

Perhaps C.S. Lewis really did get it right in the Screwtape Letters... it appears to me there are several 'wormwood's alive and kicking and working as pew-fodder and amongst the heirachy. The trouble is nobody knows who they are!

[Swell Box]

Getting right back on topic, we had a very interesting exchange at church yesterday morning, which left us feeling seriously hacked off:

By way of explanation, there was to be a Baptism in the main Eucharist, so it was a full house (120 +), including many people who I doubt were regular churchgoers.

The Vicar had set the hymns about a month ago, including the final hymn which he planned to lead on guitar to some Calypso melody or another. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Anyhow, we arrived at church about 45 minutes before the service to be greeted by a Vicaress who informed us she was standing in for the Vicar. She also said that she knew nothing about music, (this was soon to become painfully obvious), so we tactfully pointed out that there was going to be a problem with the final hymn, (the words to which had been printed on the service sheet).

Vicaress: Oh, can't you just play it on the organ?

SBJ: No, I don't have the music, and it'll be in guitar chords, so it won't work on the organ.

Vicaress: Why not?

SBJ: Guitar chords are different, and in any case we don't have the music.

By this time the Verger had joined in the conversation, and suggested that she might be able to find a tape instead.

Me: Do we really want to end the service with a tape when we have an organ and organist? Why don't we change it to a well known hymn from the hymn book that everyone will enjoy singing?

Vicaress: I agree, we should change it. (There was little other choice.)

Verger: The music group won't like that.

SBJ: Where is the music group; can one of them play it on guitar?

Verger: They are on holiday.

Vicaress (in very condescending tone): OK, I know you're only young, but what can you play?

SBJ: Pretty much anything from NEH or A&M.

Vicaress: I am not familiar with those hymn books. What would you suggest?

SBJ and I reeled through a dozen or more favourites, including Love Divine (Blaenwern), which the Vicaress through might be appropriate, although she doubted that any of the younger people would know it. (Never mind that it was sung at the recent Royal Wedding.)

That was all agreed, so everyone went about their business.

SBJ started by playing a few voluntaries as usual, and about three minutes before kick-off played an improvisation of the first hymn, but had to keep this going rather longer than expected as the service started nearly ten minutes late!

The first hymn (O Jesus I Have Promised) was fine, and most of those present sang it. The Gradual was one of those awful three-line ditties from Sing Glory, which ended up pretty much as an organ solo as nobody knew it or wanted to sing it. Then came Dear Lord and Father (Repton), which everyone seemed to know, and sang well. We finally got to Love Divine, which pretty much raised the roof!

Given the mix of the congregation this seemed to prove beyond doubt exactly what sort of hymns people like singing!

However, the congregational response to these hymns didn't seem to please the Vicaress one little bit. There was not one word of thanks, and her parting comment to SBJ was that "if you want to play in churches like this you will have to learn hymns from Mission Praise as that is what people want these days. Nobody uses the English Hymnal any more."

Frankly I thought this was a total insult; and the church doesn't even have a copy of Mission Praise!

SB

[jod]

You proved my point perfectly. Just because the clergy don't know it doesn't mean the public don't.

How many people watched the wedding of the Duke and Dutchess of Cambridge? - Millions. I sure as a result the hymn tune Blaenwern has slipped into the public subconscious. The whole point is that like it or not so has most of A&M and NEH without the clergy being aware of it. Try to teach the average person who is pew-fodder something that vaguely sounds like a hymn tune in five minutes and they will get it. It is a style of music they are familiar with, try to do it with something hip-and-trendy, and you have to be Carrie Grant to get away with it (even then she does not always succeed!).

The 'I like it modern' brigade forget at their peril that the average congregation member is over 50 and stuck in their ways. Even trying to speed up old favourites is hard work (I bet I'm not the only person who planned a quiet verse only to play it with all the reeds blazing to keep the tempo up Amazing Grace on Full Organ rather than stopped diapason and 4ft flute is interesting in the extreme, as is having to do that with all of Heinlein so you can get out of church before Maundy Thursday having started plaing on the Ash Wednesday Service!)

Yes I have worked with music groups, but their a law unto themselves - oh why did she arrange that - answer so it was playable because it was in a stupid key and the harmony I could not have got away with when I was 13! Oh and this is before the Clergy stick their oar in. Still the one time I played a tine as specified by the 'minister' rather than substituting it to one we all knew nobody sang! I warned her that nobody knew it, and told the congregation to address their complaints to the Priest in charge. After that she realised that deferring to the Organist judgement whether it was the regular organist or me was a good idea, we tended to know what we were talking about.

However they do have their foibles, and SB it sounds like you had a day where you were working with a lady Vicar who was full of them.

[soccermom]

However, the congregational response to these hymns didn't seem to please the Vicaress one little bit. There was not one word of thanks, and her parting comment to SBJ was that "if you want to play in churches like this you will have to learn hymns from Mission Praise as that is what people want these days. Nobody uses the English Hymnal any more."

Frankly I thought this was a total insult; and the church doesn't even have a copy of Mission Praise!

SB

Shame - because if it had, you could have picked it up, turned to no. 449 and showed her "Love Divine"!

[fsharpminor]

In the 50's and 60's when I was brought up and and then a Methodist organsit, a favourite was 'Sing we the King who is coming to reign', tune 'The Glory Song'
I doubt I had played it since then but it was chosen yesterday (Mission Praise 603) . I dont think our rather elderly congregation knew it , though its easy enough to pick up ! The 'lay' preacher in this Welsh Presbyterian Church (I think a former Methodist aslo) had given me the numbers on a slip of paper, and alongside 603 , GIVE IT SOME WELLY !
Our congeregation was very small (only about 16 ) due to holidays. Nevertheless, I gave it welly alright !

[mrbouffant]

Vicaress: I agree, we should change it. (There was little other choice.)

Verger: The music group won't like that.

SBJ: Where is the music group; can one of them play it on guitar?

Verger: They are on holiday.

I think this pretty much sums up the whole exchange. Classic.

[Swell Box]

However, the congregational response to these hymns didn't seem to please the Vicaress one little bit. There was not one word of thanks, and her parting comment to SBJ was that "if you want to play in churches like this you will have to learn hymns from Mission Praise as that is what people want these days. Nobody uses the English Hymnal any more."

Frankly I thought this was a total insult; and the church doesn't even have a copy of Mission Praise!

SB

Shame - because if it had, you could have picked it up, turned to no. 449 and showed her "Love Divine"!

As it happens we ourselves have two different copies of MP; one of which is so big that it falls off of the music desk, but we don't use them much as the music seems to be riddled with mistakes.

However, I don't think the hymnbook was the real issue. The problem was a trendy Vicaress who thought that young people and the unchurhed would enjoy poor quality music from the 1980's, but was inadvertently shown to be totally wrong. This was completely unintentional on our part as we were simply trying to ensure that the service ran smoothly in the absence of a guitarist, but the outcome was inescapable.

Indeed, I think she was completely unprepared for the energy and enthusiasm put into Love Divine by organist and congregation combined, and the look of joy on peoples faces as they sang it.

As an aside, Wiki says this:

"Love Divine, All Loves Excelling" is a Christian hymn by Charles Wesley with a theme of 'Christian perfection." [1] Judging by general repute, it is among Wesley's finest: [2] "justly famous and beloved, better known than almost any other hymn of Charles Wesley." [3] Judging by its distribution, it is also among his most successful: by the end of the 19th century, it is found in 15 of the 17 hymn books consulted by the authors of Lyric Studies. .[4] On a larger scale, it is found almost universally in general collections of the past century, including not only Methodist and Anglican hymn books and commercial and ecumenical collections, but also hymnals associated with Reformed, Presbyterian, Baptist, Brethren, Lutheran, Congregationalist, Pentecostal, and Roman Catholic traditions, among others; [5] specifically, it appears in 1,328 of the North American hymnals indexed by the online Dictionary of North American Hymnology, comparable to Newton's "Amazing Grace" (1,036), Wesley's "O for a Thousand Tongues" (1,249), and Watts' "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" (1,483), though still well short of Toplady's "Rock of Ages" (2,139) or Wesley's own "Jesu, Lover of my Soul" (2,164). [6]"

What more do we need to say?

SB