Learning To Play Jazz Sax Options

[skylark]

Hi jazz-players

You may know from the Woodwind forum that I've just got a soprano sax, which I particularly want to use for jazz and keep my clarinet for classical. I'm trying to find a teacher but in the meantime, I'm not sure how to proceed... or even, the more I think about it, what sort of teacher I want. I remembered that I picked up a few secondhand sax tutor/study books a year or two ago because I've wanted a sax for a long time, but I'm not sure now that I want to use them.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd like to try and learn to play sax/jazz by ear rather than from notation. I'm booked to go on a jazz workshop in the summer, and I don't think we're playing from notation there, and maybe it's best if I start as I mean to go on, ie by ear. I'm not even sure that I want to do the Jazz Sax exams because they're still quite formal, and I want to be less constrained.

Has anyone got any thoughts on what I've said? I'd be particularly interested in views on how I should approach playing by ear until I get a teacher, and what I should look for in a teacher if play-by-ear is the route I want to go...

[TSax]

We had a really interesting discussion tonight about playinge by ear /playing by notation. The overwhelming feeling was that the most successful musicians can do both (although we drew a blank as to how to teach a non-Cuban musician Cuban rythmic feel if they haven't grown up with it). If you get a good teacher they will guide you in the areas you need to develop in. As far as training your ears go then a really good exercise is to choose a tune you know well - it could be a hymn, or a TV theme tune, or Happy Birthday and work out note for note how to play the tune. Don't worry about how long it takes you (I'm still working on a transcription I started last November), don't worry if it's painfully hard - if you're used to playing by written music it might well be. Once you've got it secure, learn how to play it in a different key - maybe a tone up, or a semitone, or a 4th - whatever makes sense to you. The more time I find to work on this sort of stuff the better my jazz playing gets.

[skylark]

As far as training your ears go then a really good exercise is to choose a tune you know well - it could be a hymn, or a TV theme tune, or Happy Birthday and work out note for note how to play the tune. Don't worry about how long it takes you (I'm still working on a transcription I started last November), don't worry if it's painfully hard - if you're used to playing by written music it might well be. Once you've got it secure, learn how to play it in a different key - maybe a tone up, or a semitone, or a 4th - whatever makes sense to you. The more time I find to work on this sort of stuff the better my jazz playing gets.

I'm glad it's OK to do this - I'd worked out "When the Saints" just before posting, but I posted because it seemed a bit like "messing about" and not very constructive/structured. I'm not a natural "player by ear" and it does seem hard and takes a long time, but hopefully it will get easier. I'll think I'll enjoy it too, once I've had one or two small successes. It's a good idea to play it in different keys too. Thanks for the advice.

[nickjones8]

I'm in broad agreement - you will need to do a fair amount of ear training, but don't neglect reading, since this will severely limit the playing you can do.

You can concentrate on learning standards by ear, certainly (why not start with some easy ones: an F blues (Now's the Time?) and a 32 bar song (Autumn Leaves)?). Go along to your local jam session, and see what people do, and which tunes they favour.

As you advance however, you will probably want to read in order to make best use of teaching and advice, and since you'll need to know the note names in order to practice chord patterns, read lead sheets and improvise on songs you don't know by heart, you'll be half way to reading anyway.

There's often an assumption that learning to read somehow inhibits improvisation. It's hard to see why that should be, and it looks like a myth (I don't think Bechet read music, but every other major soprano player will have read like lightning). My guess is that people find playing jazz hard not because they learned 'properly' but because they don't do enough of it.

And because it IS hard! To play jazz well involves both technique AND hearing things fast (that's why I don't pretend to do it anymore!)

best
nick

[muse]

I'm in a similar position. I have learnt saxophone classically for 5 years as a teenager. Now I'm learning jazz and I prefer to play by ear. Mainly because I'm lazy when it comes to the theory stuff. But I'm thinking instead of finding a teacher it might be good to join a workshop (or both teacher and workshop if you have the finances) - but I can't really afford both and I think a jazz club would be much more appropriate since I think you can learn so much more from playing with others than from a loan teacher - not to say that you can't learn from a lot from a teacher.

But I think with the nature of jazz, having constant feedback from others and talking about what key your in and chords as well as playing them would help both theory/sightreading and ear playing since both would be addressed together. Also listening to others of various standards would help confidence and motivation, I think. Also when I think about playing jazz I think of it as being a social activity - one that you do with others, with feedback and support from a group which would be a similar experience in a club/workshop.

[stevensfo]

I'd be particularly interested in views on how I should approach playing by ear until I get a teacher

Some advice I heard on the woodwind.org forum was that you should know your scales, relative minors and 7ths, then just play along to whatever you hear on the radio. No matter what it is, just try and play some kind of accompaniment.

I imagine that a lot of this doesn't require a teacher. Just a lot of time!


Steve

[skylark]

I'd be particularly interested in views on how I should approach playing by ear until I get a teacher

... know your scales, relative minors and 7ths

I've started learning some of the scales - just one octave D Major and D Minor so far - and I've had a look at the Sax syllabus and see that G and F Major are in the G1 syllabus so I thought I'd learn those next. I'll have to get a book of Jazz Sax scales to make sure I get the Dorian, Mixolydian and Pentatonic scales right.

I can now play When the Saints fairly comfortably by ear - not a major achievement I know, but it is when you're not used to playing by ear - I'm finding it very scary not having the music in front of me, but at the same time it's really good fun! Without the music though, you don't know whether you should be counting a note for the length of 2 beats or 3 or whatever, and you don't know where the rests are - not sure how you overcome this problem yet...

[SaxFan]

I've started learning some of the scales - just one octave D Major and D Minor so far - and I've had a look at the Sax syllabus and see that G and F Major are in the G1 syllabus so I thought I'd learn those next. I'll have to get a book of Jazz Sax scales to make sure I get the Dorian, Mixolydian and Pentatonic scales right.

Without the music though, you don't know whether you should be counting a note for the length of 2 beats or 3 or whatever, and you don't know where the rests are - not sure how you overcome this problem yet...

Aren't those major scales just the same as if you were thinking classically, as on the clarinet - except for the articulation and phrasing maybe? The notes of the scales don't change.

Play all your scales as much as possible and without a book - do it by ear. If you play C major for example, then the theory tells you how you build up any other major scale, doesn't it? Your ear will tell you more and more if you make a mistake.
And for phrasing and articulation there's a lot of stuff by Lennie Niehaus that is great to play and a good exercise.

If you are trying to work without the dots, then play Dorian and Myxolidian without getting a scale book - in fact any of the modes.
The Dorian on D is no more than the major scale of C but you start and finish on D - sounds different doesn't it?
So the Dorian on E will go from E to E with 2 sharps... and so on?

Myxolidian mode starts on the 5th degree of the major scale ... so Myxolidian on G is from G to G no sharps no flats...

You can learn pentatonics without anything written down; also Dom 7ths etc if you think them out in your head. There's a lot to be said for not relying on paper and dots!!

Most important is to DO it -