Kodaly, Suzuki and Dalcroze, Sounds like characters from Rainbow! Options

[FullofWind]

In layman's terms, please could someone kindly explain to me what kodaly, dalcroze and suzuki is and how these methods may be better than traditional methods? I have googled them but I'm finding it all very confusing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[linda.ff]

In layman's terms, please could someone kindly explain to me what kodaly, dalcroze and suzuki is and how these methods may be better than traditional methods? I have googled them but I'm finding it all very confusing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

We have "tame Kodaly experts" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) aplenty her, so I couldn't possibly compete with them for an explanation.

I can say a little about Suzuki, though. It's intended for younger children, and is sometimes defined as a "mother-tongue" method. It began with violin and has extended to other instruments including piano, cello and flute. There is a concentration on listening, memory, aural training and matters such as posture, good tone and good intonation, and this is done by teaching entirely by rote for the first couple of years or so, using the same basic repertoire, so that the child knows the sound of the piece he is to learn before starting it. They are not held back by problems of trying to read music. One important factor is that the (or a) parent is in the lesson, often taking part as well, and practises with the child during the week. Group lessons at an appropriate level are usually a factor of this method.

Children using the method in Japan don't start to learn to read music on the violin until they have got past the Vivaldi Concerto in A minor, at which point it comes very quickly and easily (our teacher in Somerset used to start them reading earlier because in this country they would probably be making music with children from other musical disciplines and would probably need the literacy)

In the early stages there are a lot of rhythm games and fun activities - I remember my daughter on a Suzuki course sharing a violin with another child while one did the bowing and the other the left hand on the fingerboard. It's a very multisensory method - lots of looking, listening and movement.

A story I always liked was that Shinichi Suzuki was asked if two of his older students could perform a duo sonata for a radio broadcast. He provided them with the music and left them to look at it and start to learn it. He returned to the house not long afterwards to hear the sound of the music perfectly played, and when he went into the room they were already playing it from memory. He had only been gone a few minutes. "Oh, we've read through it once" they said, "so now we know it"

[FullofWind]

Would you say that learning Suzuki on piano or violin would be pointless if a child could already read music, play another instrument fairly well and was over the age of 10?

[linda.ff]

Would you say that learning Suzuki on piano or violin would be pointless if a child could already read music, play another instrument fairly well and was over the age of 10?

A committed Suzuki teacher might say no, not pointless, since the principles of how the music is learnt would still be there - you learn by listening (and partly by watching) and don't stumble through sight-reading, and the posture and tone are all-importsnt. Plus, the parent is supposed to support the lesson and the practice, thgouh in the later stages I'm sure it's far more hands-off.

However, if my child was "well over" the age of 10, I wouldn't try to go down that route. Many teachers who do teach Suzuki to younger children also use more traditional methods, though, and incorporate the best of Suzuki principles into their work

[PianoNotes]

All I can say is that these three ways of teaching compliment each other. However, I certainly know of one "Kodaly expert" who makes very useful contributions to this forum and I am sure will assist you in that regard. I know her personally and would not describe her as tame (or wild for that matter) but extremely knowledgable in her field.

[Cyrilla]

'He is not a tame lion...but he is good...'

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[violincjj]

By way of illustration I'll tell you a little of what I've been doing to try to include aspects of all these in my group classes this year. These are for violin and viola students.

The preGrade 1 group play entirely from memory and learn a new simple piece each time we meet. We sing it first and use Kodaly handsigns often. Last time we were doing Row, Row, Row Your Boat. A lot of the kids can play a tune like that by ear anyway after singing it but I also 'teach' it by rote at this point and we repeat until most of them are fluent. We added a 2 beat sway to tie in with the Dalcroze actitvity that we have been doing off and on all year - we have foam footballs that we bounce or roll in pairs while we sing. It's a lot of fun to watch and do! We also often use 'movement' words for rhythms and practise moving to a 'walk' pulse or a 'jogging' pulse round the room, then we copy rhythm patterns with instruments and say the movement words that correspond.

[barry-clari]

'He is not a tame lion...but he is good...'

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)

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[owainsutton]

As somebody trained in none of the three, here's my attempt to sum up each of the three methods in a slogan:

Kodaly: "Learning music comes before playing an instrument"

Suzuki: "Learn music as you learn your mother tongue"

Dalcroze: "Music through movement"

Trivial to the point of insulting, I'll plead guilty. However, it's important to recognise how various elements and principles from each of the three approaches have influenced most instrumental teaching. Peripatetic teachers with local authorities are in particular expected to provide an integrated approach to general musicianship rather than simple apprentice-like instrumental instruction.

Teachers benefit from an awareness of Kodaly principles if they need to work with large groups, for example, and Dalcroze-like activites can help develop a rhythmic and harmonic awareness while also being a 'fun' part of a lesson.

[linda.ff]

'He is not a tame lion...but he is good...'

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)

You did realise I was quoting, didn't you?

[violincjj]

I think the single thing that I have learned from all these approaches is that music is not the black dots on the page - the dots are just a coded way of writing the music down.

So the Suzuki method instils music into the heart of the child - and Suzuki himself was very interested in the idea that music could make humans better people - by immersing them in beautiful renditions of the carefully and brilliantly chosen repertoire. They have a good model of performance to aspire to and the constant listening gives them an accurate internal version of each piece before they play it.

Kodaly asks the child to use their own voice to make music following natural (to our Western ears) intervals - the handsigns work like magic for many because they give a physical gesture to each sound and another big physical clue with the intervals between sounds. These are great for learners who are not automatically clued-into pitch relationships.

Dalcroze is a lot of fun, yes, I think I am only touching the edges of it but when I am brave and I get the kids to do more fluffy stuff like phrasing with chiffon scarves I see (even the big boys!) exploring musical sensitivity in a wonderful way. I need to do more of it! Anyone done a Dalcroze course??

[sbhoa]

Dalcroze is a lot of fun, yes, I think I am only touching the edges of it but when I am brave and I get the kids to do more fluffy stuff like phrasing with chiffon scarves I see (even the big boys!) exploring musical sensitivity in a wonderful way. I need to do more of it! Anyone done a Dalcroze course??

I started but didn't finish.
I did one term but chose not to continue.
One reason was that I really couldn't face what would be another 5 weeks of dance class. For me that element was too much. The effort to coordinate the movement meant that it didn't really do what it was meant to though i do see the value of it. The other thing was that I didn't fully realise that it would start to demand similar time and effort as learning another instrument and I was at the point where I was getting more serious about a second instrument already.

[Seer_Green]

Dalcroze is a lot of fun, yes, I think I am only touching the edges of it but when I am brave and I get the kids to do more fluffy stuff like phrasing with chiffon scarves I see (even the big boys!) exploring musical sensitivity in a wonderful way. I need to do more of it! Anyone done a Dalcroze course??

I started but didn't finish.
I did one term but chose not to continue.
One reason was that I really couldn't face what would be another 5 weeks of dance class. For me that element was too much. The effort to coordinate the movement meant that it didn't really do what it was meant to though i do see the value of it. The other thing was that I didn't fully realise that it would start to demand similar time and effort as learning another instrument and I was at the point where I was getting more serious about a second instrument already.

I think that's a real shame; from everything I've seen and read, Dalcroze shouldn't be dance - that's not the aim. Of course, the actual physical movement element is just one part of it too, but I am aware that some courses and workshops focus very heavily on this.

[sbhoa]

Dalcroze is a lot of fun, yes, I think I am only touching the edges of it but when I am brave and I get the kids to do more fluffy stuff like phrasing with chiffon scarves I see (even the big boys!) exploring musical sensitivity in a wonderful way. I need to do more of it! Anyone done a Dalcroze course??

I started but didn't finish.
I did one term but chose not to continue.
One reason was that I really couldn't face what would be another 5 weeks of dance class. For me that element was too much. The effort to coordinate the movement meant that it didn't really do what it was meant to though i do see the value of it. The other thing was that I didn't fully realise that it would start to demand similar time and effort as learning another instrument and I was at the point where I was getting more serious about a second instrument already.

I think that's a real shame; from everything I've seen and read, Dalcroze shouldn't be dance - that's not the aim. Of course, the actual physical movement element is just one part of it too, but I am aware that some courses and workshops focus very heavily on this.

Maybe not strictly dance but it felt like it. lots of steps to coordinate and I think it was about half of each term.

[anacrusis]

It's what would put me off that too: my insides are curling up in embarrassment at the very idea of doing the Dalcroze stuff: and before anyone says, you have to try it (usually followed by, "you'd love it, it's such fun" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif)) - I've done similar before and feel awkward and stupid in a way I don't if hiding behind my instruments. What I don't get is why my feeling like this upsets and offends those who are advocates of these forms of learning - all I'm pointing out is that it isn't for everyone. Kodaly, in particular the signing, would have the same effect on me - and of Suzuki I'm really only aware of its use for very young children, and not sure how what is done there can be adapted to suit older people: it's said of the very early stages that a small tot will begin by sitting under the piano whilst an older pupil plays, learning by hearing....but a kid of ten might well not fit under the piano quite as well....(and would get bored).