"it Isn't Necessary To Touch Children In Order To Demonstrate Options

[Seer_Green]

Were any instrumental teachers even consulted during the making of these videos?

Gracious...do you really think that the Board consult teachers about anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[baiba]

Also - if the authorities don't like the idea of 'touch' by trained professional caring teachers in music lessons (which of course is totally necessary to music teaching) then they have completely missed the point of music lessons.

Instrumental teaching is a tactile profession - we use our hands and fingers and feet and body movements to produce sound on an instrument (or voice).

From time to time we need to correct posture, hand postion, shoulder posistion and foot position of our youngsters during a lesson and the easiest way is to gently push their backs into postion, or place the ball of their foot on the pedal (or toe if small person). It does not happen very often, but very occasionally is necessary.

I have watched my daughter in her violin lessons being very carefully corrected by her lovely (female - which is also irrelevant to the point) teacher, in EVERY lesson, to keep her body in correct alignment and position in order to protect her posture from pain and wrong position.

It is what a professional musical instrument teacher 'should' be doing, not what they 'should not' be doing. I am talking young here when she was six years old or so.

Obviously adult students are able to comprehend verbal instructions faster so may need less physical contact to explain a point.

We are not talking a mainstream school subject here - it is not maths or English or science.

It is MUSIC. You cannot compare apples and oranges, so music lessons cannot be compared to other mainstream subjects, to do so is wrong.

If the board can't see this, then how on earth do they expect us to teach?

A similar analogy might be - 'well, remember - we should never step outside our front door - because there is a slight possibility of being crushed by a falling piano....' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[baiba]

Were any instrumental teachers even consulted during the making of these videos?

Gracious...do you really think that the Board consult teachers about anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I thought the Board WAS made up of a group of music teachers (or ex-music teachers)!. Well I really really hope that it is..

[morceau]

Just looked at the videos and found them silly and amaturish to say the least. I thought they were rather insulting to teachers' intelligence.

Just looked at the videos and found them silly and amaturish to say the least. I thought they were rather insulting to teachers' intelligence.

I would have to agree - the vids a more than a bit embarrassing..no self respecting teacher would manhandle pupils (or anyone!) in that way in today's informed politically correct educational climate.

So I don't really get the point of these vids.....maybe they could be used as an education tool for trainee teachers with an IQ of about 3 who are thinking of going into the teaching profession ...not! .....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I've just watched the videos and totally agree with the above. I'm not in the habit of picking things to bits just for the sake of it, and I know that these sort of training videos can often be clunky, cliched and unconvincingly acted, but these ones are really just ludicrous. They are more like the kind of video I would expect to see used for pupils in order to encourage discussion about right and wrong ways to behave, not as training for professionals.

[Arundodonuts]

Obviously adult students are able to comprehend verbal instructions faster so may need less physical contact to explain a point.

But then again it's probably less of an issue with adults anyway. I quite like being touched. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) It's probably more of an issue the other way round.

Seriously though, the best way to demonstrate "support" to a woodwind pupil is get them to touch a player who is supporting properly to get an idea of what it feels like.

[Organistin]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
I've just watched the videos and totally agree with the above. I'm not in the habit of picking things to bits just for the sake of it, and I know that these sort of training videos can often be clunky, cliched and unconvincingly acted, but these ones are really just ludicrous. They are more like the kind of video I would expect to see used for pupils in order to encourage discussion about right and wrong ways to behave, not as training for professionals.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Patronizing and excruciatingly embarrassing to watch.
Very poor quality for professional training.

As for the video with the violinist. What on earth?
The example where he held the boys shoulder and wrist was completely ludicrous. No teacher would do that.
And as for the "after" example, where he was supposedly able to teach without touching. ... how on earth, in a real lesson situation, would the pupil know what he was going on about.
In the video, as if by magic, the teacher demonstrates on his violin, says something about keeping your hand in the same position and hey presto, abracadabra, the boy manages to reproduce the correct hand position and plays the scale perfectly. Yeah right.

I got the impression from the videos that they were making out that music teachers were particularly vulnerable to manhandling children. They may not have meant it, but this is how it came across.
It got my back up from the beginning of the first video.

Had it been a sensible series of videos showing how you could demonstrate techniques with MINIMAL touch then it might have been useful. Ditto if it had covered what was definitely inappropriate and what might be interpreted as inappropriate in a way that was not presumptive and insulting.

Of course there have been cases where music teachers have acted inappropriately, just as there have been cases of classteachers, teaching assistants, priests, youth group leaders, relatives, neighbours etcetc.
But as someone pointed out earlier, these were not cases where a piano teacher or violin teacher or whichever instrument (I say piano and violin because that is all I know about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) ) has gently moved fingers, or arms or hands into the correct position.

I remember in my early 20s being shocked to find out that the a conductor I had once known was prosecuted for physically molesting some of his female singing and woodwind pupils. Without going in to details, what he had done was WAY beyond any kind of appropriate touch and he had made out to the pupils that it was completely necessary for them to progess. They had believed him at first but gradually realized that he should not have been doing it.
A very clear cut case - not a case of lightly moving a finger or even gently adjusting posture.

[TeacherNumberOne]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
I've just watched the videos and totally agree with the above. I'm not in the habit of picking things to bits just for the sake of it, and I know that these sort of training videos can often be clunky, cliched and unconvincingly acted, but these ones are really just ludicrous. They are more like the kind of video I would expect to see used for pupils in order to encourage discussion about right and wrong ways to behave, not as training for professionals.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Patronizing and excruciatingly embarrassing to watch.
Very poor quality for professional training.

As for the video with the violinist. What on earth?
The example where he held the boys shoulder and wrist was completely ludicrous. No teacher would do that.
And as for the "after" example, where he was supposedly able to teach without touching. ... how on earth, in a real lesson situation, would the pupil know what he was going on about.
In the video, as if by magic, the teacher demonstrates on his violin, says something about keeping your hand in the same position and hey presto, abracadabra, the boy manages to reproduce the correct hand position and plays the scale perfectly. Yeah right.

I couldn't agree more. A complete pile of excrement - patronising and ridiculous.

[Mad Tom]

What does anyone else think about these videos (www.youtube.com/user/TheMusiciansUnion) and the above statement in particular??

To answer the original questions (rather than recounting some past experience or having a rant): the videos are pathetic and the statement is demonstrably untrue.

[Seer_Green]

I suppose that at the heart of the matter, how many of us are actually prepared to stand up and be counted and put our concerns/complaints/reservations about the message given off by these videos to the Board in writing.

It seems to me to be easy to discuss them and grumble about them on the forums (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that), but it doesn't make any difference. It does alter what the Board do because I don't think they read and take note of what's said here in the same way they might if these representations were made along more official channels.

[ma non troppo]

I just want to say that I agree with many of the opinions expressed above; the videos are patronising to professionals who work with children and young people.
You have to touch children to teach - as long as you are up front and honest about this it is not generally a problem. There is a big difference between correcting posture or a hand position and abuse. I operate an "open door " policy for parents, but the fact is that beyond the first few lessons, there are few who sit in on the lessons. It's a trust thing. I always say to new clients that I will have to touch a child to teach them effectively and no parent or child has ever complained or had a problem with this in nearly 20 years teaching.

[Misterioso]

I think it's gone all silly - what happens if a child bursts into tears in the middle of a lesson and clearly needs comforting? The fact that most people would feel scared to give that child a reassuring hug or cuddle (particularly if a younger child - but then again, teenagers need hugs too......) is just indicative of the way this nanny state has gone.......

I am one (of very many, I am sure) who has done exactly that. It was a natural response to the situation, but as soon as I did it, I felt guilty just in case it could be possibly be misconstrued. I was teaching a lunchtime school group, and due to friends and others who had come to peer in at the window of the door, and a group of boys just laughing, making faces and the like (which distracted some of the group) I had blu-tacked a sheet of paper over the window of the door. Suddenly, it becomes very easy to see how completely innocent actions could be seen as something else entirely.

There was never any complaint, but it was one of a number of reasons why, when the school offered me the contract for the following year, I declined.

[flutey1]

I hate all this! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I don't manhandle my pupils, but I do touch their fingers and arms from time to time.
And poke 'em with my bow or pencil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

hahaha.. poke them with your bow or pencil.. LOVE IT!!

one of my pupils is very attention seeking, he is the only child, both his parents work and he his carted off to after school clubs everyday and holidays, so he is very 'huggy huggy'... i don't encourage it and have also told him 'no, don't do that'. but i agree with you, this world is getting TOO SENSITIVE....and pc.. not everyone is out to corrupt... jeeze louise!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

some parents have wanted me to teach their youngsters in their bedrooms!! NO WAY HOSAY!!! i encourage the parents to sit in, leave the door open, nothing to hide... walk past.. etc etc etc.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) they can pop in unanounced and take us by surprise... i've had one parent come in thru the french doors and frighten the s~#t out of me... but that's all part of the getting to know you, are you confident in me teaching your kids..(p.s, i'm a mobile teacher, he didn't come in my french doors!! LOL) at the end of the day, it's trust and that's all you have....

[twinkle]

A very good point made about appropriate and inappropriate touch. The video is atrocious! Firstly, there is clearly no rapport between teacher and pupil: I touch my adult, teenage and children pupils often to correct hand position and posture, but I'm incredibly careful on how I do so. If I ever noticed a child looking uncomfortable, as does the one in the video, I'd stop! But, moreover, I wouldn't do what the teacher does in the video! Firstly, there's something much more intimate and unnecessary about the teacher's face being so close to the students. Secondly, I'd never just rest my hand on a student's shoulder. I do however often lightly touch students' shoulders to help them realise they're holding tension there. I realise, from having studied Alexander Technique that sometimes we often think we're in good posture until a light touch on the shoulder shows us otherwise.

One drawback of modern education is that it is not multi-sensory enough. We have 5 senses! 5 ways the brain can take in information. As a teacher, I'm always on the hunt to find the easiest route for students' learning. I'm not going to struggle explaining something verbally for half an hour when experience has shown me that a kinaesthetic tactile approach is more effective. That's just stupid! I'm actually very cheesed off at this video!

I suppose that at the heart of the matter, how many of us are actually prepared to stand up and be counted and put our concerns/complaints/reservations about the message given off by these videos to the Board in writing.

It seems to me to be easy to discuss them and grumble about them on the forums (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that), but it doesn't make any difference. It does alter what the Board do because I don't think they read and take note of what's said here in the same way they might if these representations were made along more official channels.

I'm going to start a new thread for people to post their own views on APPROPRIATE physical contact, what to be wary of etc. Then perhaps they can be collated, and sent to the board? How do people feel about that?

[maggiemay]

oh dear - now I've got to read the whole of this thread and watch the video - which I have to admit I've been studiously avoiding! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Seer_Green]

I'm going to start a new thread for people to post their own views on APPROPRIATE physical contact, what to be wary of etc. Then perhaps they can be collated, and sent to the board? How do people feel about that?

I'm sorry, but I think that's a copout. It's easy to post messages on internet forums hiding behind one's anonymity. It's a very different thing to write a personal letter with your name attached. The Board are not going to take any notice of threads here. Everyday people post on these forums criticising some element of the Board's work, but I wonder when it comes to it, how many are prepared to stand up and be counted.

If people really hold the views posted here about these videos, then they should be making those clear to the Board, in writing, with their real name attached. This picks up on the point I made earlier about not standing up to these things. If we really believe in something, then as individuals, we should be wholeheartedly prepared to stand by those views and not air them anonymously. My view is that it's all very well moaning, grumbling and criticising, but that doesn't change anything. If people firmly believe something is wrong then they should be prepared to take up the fight!

I wonder how many though will really do this? I've written mine.