Pedants' Paradise, Spelling and Grammar Notes and Queries Options

[muffinmonster]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[maggiemay]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Neither do I. We had just returned from the Far East, and I found I was pronouncing it rather as though it was Japanese.

[Dugazon]

It's a good way to think about it but it's subjective. It's always my first name that causes the problems, rather than my surname, and I don't really have a problem with people pronouncing it slightly differently and it's usually a decent approximation. A friend of mine is called Jean-R?my, but he'll introduce himself in England as John. Each to their own, I suppose.

I have the same problem here.
I don't mind the close approximation - there's only so much you can do about an accent and the way your articulators shape sounds, depending on what your native tongue/accent is. You can train it of course, although I have to say that you are probably more keen to do this if you work in a related profession (it's still very common in singing and acting - both to eliminate native accents and to learn new ones).

However, some people don't even try and force their own pronunciation on you instead (I even had people trying to tell me how to pronounce my own name - now that takes the biscuit I guess).

I have to admit though that if I want to avoid a spelling marathon or repeating myself, I pronounce my name the English way, especially over the phone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

pushpull, did you ever hear the older Germans calling it "Volleyvott" (closest approximation without using the phonetic alphabet)? My gran used to say it that way, and I never quite understood - even if you read it out using German phonetics, it can only be "Vohlvort" at the most. Where does the "Volley" come from? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I admit I am a bit of a sucker for languages, annoying enough I will never do all of them justice. I always say: If in doubt about a name or proper noun, do as the Romans (Swedish, ...) do and try to get as close as possible:

http://www.forvo.com/word/ikea/

[Czerny]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

A lot of it's down to convention and words becoming anglicised (or whatever). After all, we don't generally talk about going to Parree to see the Eefell Tower...

[Dugazon]

A lot of it's down to convention and words becoming anglicised (or whatever). After all, we don't generally talk about going to Parree to see the Eefell Tower...

I guess you can go to Naples or Napoli, Munich or M?nchen. Luckily, Paris will always be Paris in that case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: This question-mark business starts to get a bit annoying ...

[Arundodonuts]

pushpull, did you ever hear the older Germans calling it "Volleyvott" (closest approximation without using the phonetic alphabet)? My gran used to say it that way, and I never quite understood - even if you read it out using German phonetics, it can only be "Vohlvort" at the most. Where does the "Volley" come from?

No, Oma said "Vullvort". Mind you she said a lot of things that amused me in my youth. "Bassroom" and "Dinner readich now" for instance. Speaking of shops, C&A was amusing too.

[flobiano]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

It cuts both ways. In Germany I have heard a famous shop (now defunct) pronounced "Vullvort". Incidentally I had never thought about the pronunciation of IKEA and though I put the e on the end of Porsche, I pronounce Mercedes the English way. I did however, manage to pronounce my German mum's name, Lisa, correctly - unlike most English people.

My Finnish mum always pronounced it eekea.

I always have a quandry on how to pronounce "sauna" which is possibly the only Finnish word to make it into English. I was brought up to pronounce it "Sow-na" (the Finnish pronunciation) but obviously it has been anglicised to "Sore-na" which just sounds wrong to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Czerny]

All manner of lexical, grammatical and syntactical problems are welcomed in pedants' paradise, but we only allow quandaries and dilemmas, not quandries and dillemnas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[maggiemay]

I admit I am a bit of a sucker for languages, annoying enough I will never do all of them justice. I always say: If in doubt about a name or proper noun, do as the Romans (Swedish, ...) do and try to get as close as possible:

http://www.forvo.com/word/ikea/

Interesting - thank you ! nice to know my original attempt was more or less right, even though it was all for the wrong reasons !

[flobiano]

All manner of lexical, grammatical and syntactical problems are welcomed in pedants' paradise, but we only allow quandaries and dilemmas, not quandries and dillemnas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

oops. Many apologies I was distracted by the arrival of my dinner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

[Czerny]

All manner of lexical, grammatical and syntactical problems are welcomed in pedants' paradise, but we only allow quandaries and dilemmas, not quandries and dillemnas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

oops. Many apologies I was distracted by the arrival of my dinner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

Pology ccepted.

Hope 'a's are back on the menu now - they're quite useful... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[freda_bloogs]

I have this discussion with people over and over again. If we pronounced loan words with their native properties every single time we came across one, we'd hardly have any "English" words! There's nothing wrong with saying eye-key-a. I have no Swedish phonology whatsoever so wouldn't even begin to know how to go about pronouncing it "properly."

Certainly true, however I personally think there is a difference between loan words on the one hand, and names/proper nouns on the other. If you e.g. would like people to pronounce your surname the way you would in your native tongue, the same should apply to a name or proper noun?

A lot of it's down to convention and words becoming anglicised (or whatever). After all, we don't generally talk about going to Parree to see the Eefell Tower...

Indeed. And I do have knowledge of French - but I rarely say don't say "I'm going to visit the tour eeff-ell in Paree."

Inversely it works the same way.

"Tu viens d'ou?" "Pres de Mon-ches-t-fleghm-errrrr" rather than "Pres de Manchester."

Edit: The arseing (yes we can get away with that word (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) accents work in the preview but not in the post!!! Fiddlesticks.

[maggiemay]

aaargh - from the bbc - I am truly shocked ---


There's only a few hours left to vote for the six BBC Radio presenter's who bravely took to the stage at the comedy store to raise money for Comic Relief.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[katica]

aaargh - from the bbc - I am truly shocked ---

There's only a few hours left to vote for the six BBC Radio presenter's who bravely took to the stage at the comedy store to raise money for Comic Relief.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Oh no. Wot is the world coming to!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

More shocking - sad, really - is that I am no longer shocked or even that surprised to see such things from the beeb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Celeste]

From an article on the BBC news website.

"It has trended on Twitter and been the subject of huge online comment and discussion.

Mainly because it's been derided by millions of people for what they say are its awful lyrics."

Why does that need its own paragraph? Also, it doesn't even make sense! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)