How do you find a good singing teacher? Options

[Seer_Green]

oops...posted in wrong thread

[Alicia Ocean]

...this petty squabbling...

*confused* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Are you accusing me of "petty squabbling" for asking if you were referring to my post?

[silverfoxx]

...this petty squabbling...

*confused* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Are you accusing me of "petty squabbling" for asking if you were referring to my post?

Yes.

[silverfoxx]

...this petty squabbling...

*confused* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Are you accusing me of "petty squabbling" for asking if you were referring to my post?

Yes.

I feel we have reached a point in this thread where contributions are beginning to diverge from the question posed 'How do you find a good singing teacher' that it may be useful to include the very interesting and necessary subject of accompaniment in a separate thread. Whilst the thread may be more appropriately placed within another forum such as the viva piano forum , or in a general forum, the subject of accompaniment has been raised within this one as advice to vile din when choosing a singing teacher.

Accompaniment, and piano accompaniment in particular, is a discipline in itself and is quite different altogether from the necessary skills pianists are expected to display as soloists , either during performance recitals or within exam situations.

Indeed some institutions such are Trinity College still offer accompaniment as a separate discipline in their graded exams to assist accompanists improve their accompaniment skills and to gain accreditation for this improvement.

There is no element of instrumental teaching of soloists within the syllabus as the emphasis is clearly to develop essential areas such as keyboard transposition and supporting the soloist.

The requirements also include some of the essential piano skills required to successfully play the separate singing art song styles of lieder and chanson. There the accompanist is at the same time, the second member of a duo,an accompanist in the traditional sense and the accompanist is further expected to offer intrepretation of sound effects, mood and add colour to the lied or chanson.

So what make a good accompanist. Perhaps the famous accompanist Gerald Moore will guide us to the name of the divergent thread in the title of of his book' Am I too loud'?

[vectistim]

Surely the need for accompaniment skills will depend on the type of student.

If a singing teacher can get themselves a practice that concentrates solely on vocal technique for advanced students then piano skills may be largely unnecessary, and at that level the separation of technique and repetiteur/accompanist makes sense.

But, most teachers presumably have a wider variety of student, in those instances the accompaniment skills are likely to be required more, since as well as technique the teacher will be teacher repertoire and the student will be learning how to sing with accompaniment.

[silverfoxx]

I can't see any instances of anyone suggesting that accompanist skills are primordial - or even necessary. Quite the opposite in fact.

Am I missing something?

I feel that the selection of a instrumental teacher including a singing teacher (the voice being treated as an instrument) is fraught with issues. Indeed it may be even more important to select the right singing teacher, that is the one who is an experienced vocal coach and who perhaps has some performance skills they may be able to pass on.

If you break a violin string, for example, the solution is to replace the string and this will take only a few seconds. If ,on the other hand, you over stress the vocal folds it may take a very long time; months or even years in some extreme cases of specialist interception to repair the damage.

As a singer I feel I can comment on some issues surrounding the successful selection of a singing teacher. But it is far too easy to accept that there is an acceptable substitute for the solid application of strong vocal technique. There isn't.

Rosfrog,
If you look carefully at some contributions to this thread you will see that some have suggested that it may be important in selecting a singing teacher that your singing teacher is a accomplished accompanist, or indeed an accompanist of any merit. Whilst it may be useful for the singing teacher to be able to play the accompaniment in the process of practice and for the soloist to become familiar with accompanied performance this is not as important in early steps towards learning how to sing. Unaccompanied 'A Cappella' singing wouldn't exist nor would it work at all if this was the case. So a singing teacher who has accompanist skills is handy but not essential.

Other contributions suggest that singing to recorded backing tracks may be adopted , perhaps, as another acceptable substitute for an accompanist, or possibly even a singing teacher?

Recorded backing accompaniments are usually pitched at bland, middle of the road settings of pieces. There is no opportunity for the song to become yours with recorded accompaniment as the artistic interpretation, or lack of this, is fixed and there is no room for maneuvering. The recording may be too fast or too slow, or not fast or slow enough to suit your musical interpretation. There will be little or no use of dynamics and the recording cannot support the soloist. At worst the piece may not be available in a suitable key and this may, in the worst cases result in over stressing the vocal folds.

To use them instead of an accompanist during practice or during recitals transforms the excitement and thrill of live performance into Kareoke.

Recorded backing tracks are, however, useful for practice when all of the note crunching, word learning, dynamics, use of rubato and your musical interpretation are firmly in place. They allow soloists to practice on their own so that they can practice asynchronous timing. They are also useful at this point for warming up.

So accompanist skills are useful for singing teachers and for singers to have but they are not essential for singers to learn how to sing.

[ExpressYourself]

In my lessons one of my aims is to get my students singing independently and happily with a backing track or a piano accompaniment

However some of my students can't sing in tune without either myself or the original artist.
Others can sing with the piano where the piano is also playing the melody
Others can sing with the piano just playing accompaniment and no melody but they cannot then sing in tune with a backing track
Others are fine with a backing track but can't sing in tune with the piano
Some can sing in tune if it's the original key but if we change the key then they insist on still singing in the original (I wish I had this talent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) )
Others have trouble keeping in time with the music so if I'm accompanying on the piano I vary my speed

So as you can see with such a range of students I am glad to have piano skills. Especially when we're breaking down a small part of the song. However, those who don't have piano skills no doubt have their own ways of doing things and if it works for them and their students then that's great.

I think backing tracks are marvelous things. The kids love them and they sound great! It really helps them get in the mood of the song and they feel just like their favourite singers. Plus with backing tracks I can focus on their singing rather than having half my brain on the piano.

[silverfoxx]

In my lessons one of my aims is to get my students singing independently and happily with a backing track or a piano accompaniment

However some of my students can't sing in tune without either myself or the original artist.
Others can sing with the piano where the piano is also playing the melody
Others can sing with the piano just playing accompaniment and no melody but they cannot then sing in tune with a backing track
Others are fine with a backing track but can't sing in tune with the piano
Some can sing in tune if it's the original key but if we change the key then they insist on still singing in the original (I wish I had this talent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) )
Others have trouble keeping in time with the music so if I'm accompanying on the piano I vary my speed

So as you can see with such a range of students I am glad to have piano skills. Especially when we're breaking down a small part of the song. However, those who don't have piano skills no doubt have their own ways of doing things and if it works for them and their students then that's great.

I think backing tracks are marvelous things. The kids love them and they sound great! It really helps them get in the mood of the song and they feel just like their favourite singers. Plus with backing tracks I can focus on their singing rather than having half my brain on the piano.

Hi express yourself,

Have you considered making your own recordings of accompaniments. This may be more useful to you as it will be your interpretation and be your musical direction. The tendency for your interpretation of being bullied by the backing tracks I have previously mentioned will be addressed. If you re-interprete the piece make another recording of the accompaniment?

[ExpressYourself]

I have done that for songs which have no suitable backing but to be honest it's not such a problem regarding interpretation. We can speed up or slow down the backing as a whole if we like. But with pop music you don't really have a great deal of tempo variations within a song. Especially at the level I teach at.

What I do regularly do is alter the order of verses and cut out instrumentals or middle 8s. I do all this with audacity by chopping up and rematching the different parts in the backing tracks.

Plus of course, within the boundaries of the rhythms in the track, we can alter the vocal line to add or take away ornamentation and alter the octave etc etc.

It's a good point that I hadn't really considered. Do any other teachers of pop songs alter the backings to allow for interpretation?

[silverfoxx]

In my lessons one of my aims is to get my students singing independently and happily with a backing track or a piano accompaniment

However some of my students can't sing in tune without either myself or the original artist.
Others can sing with the piano where the piano is also playing the melody
Others can sing with the piano just playing accompaniment and no melody but they cannot then sing in tune with a backing track
Others are fine with a backing track but can't sing in tune with the piano
Some can sing in tune if it's the original key but if we change the key then they insist on still singing in the original (I wish I had this talent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) )
Others have trouble keeping in time with the music so if I'm accompanying on the piano I vary my speed

So as you can see with such a range of students I am glad to have piano skills. Especially when we're breaking down a small part of the song. However, those who don't have piano skills no doubt have their own ways of doing things and if it works for them and their students then that's great.

I think backing tracks are marvelous things. The kids love them and they sound great! It really helps them get in the mood of the song and they feel just like their favourite singers. Plus with backing tracks I can focus on their singing rather than having half my brain on the piano.

Hi express yourself,

Have you considered making your own recordings of accompaniments. This may be more useful to you as it will be your interpretation and be your musical direction. The tendency for your interpretation of being bullied by the backing tracks I have previously mentioned will be addressed. If you re-interprete the piece make another recording of the accompaniment?

Hi express yourself,

That's a very good point about audacity's ability to mix things up a bit.

In pop culture there is an expectation on the part of your audience that you have to make the song your own,' To keep it real'. There are plenty of very good examples of this on display in BBC1's 'The Voice' programme where the original recording of very well known pop songs are re-interpreted into a completely different pop style.

This certainly works for soloists. Don't you think it would be exciting and radical for a choir. I hope this gives you food for thought?

[ExpressYourself]

In pop culture there is an expectation on the part of your audience that you have to make the song your own,' To keep it real'. There are plenty of very good examples of this on display in BBC1's 'The Voice' programme where the original recording of very well known pop songs are re-interpreted into a completely different pop style.

This certainly works for soloists. Don't you think it would be exciting and radical for a choir. I hope this gives you food for thought?

Unfortunately to do such a thing in a performance would involve gaining arrangement permissions from the copyright holders and there is a fee payable for this. So in my choirs we stick to the original so we don't fall foul of the law. But then that is a topic for another thread!

Doing it in lesson times when there's no audience is not a problem but who wants to learn something they can't legally perform or record! Not me!

[silverfoxx]

In pop culture there is an expectation on the part of your audience that you have to make the song your own,' To keep it real'. There are plenty of very good examples of this on display in BBC1's 'The Voice' programme where the original recording of very well known pop songs are re-interpreted into a completely different pop style.

This certainly works for soloists. Don't you think it would be exciting and radical for a choir. I hope this gives you food for thought?

Unfortunately to do such a thing in a performance would involve gaining arrangement permissions from the copyright holders and there is a fee payable for this. So in my choirs we stick to the original so we don't fall foul of the law. But then that is a topic for another thread!

Doing it in lesson times when there's no audience is not a problem but who wants to learn something they can't legally perform or record! Not me!

Hello Rosfrog,

I'm very reluctant to begin a game of forum ping pong with the use of each other's quotes.

Here in your last post is a classic example of the danger I mention that some of the advice given will encourage potential singers to run before they can walk.

'I don't know where you've heard backing tracks from, but they don't sound like the ones professionals use. The singers I work with who use backing tracks (mostly the classical artists who don't have a regular accompanist or then musical theatre people) use tracks in the right key for their voice, recorded by professional musicians. As you don't seem to like the idea of accompaniment nor of backing tracks - what would you suggest singers use? '

The question posed here is 'How do you find a good singing teacher' not an accompanist, how to use recorded backing tracks for singing and it most certainly is not a discussion of the physiology and pathology of the larynx. You have strayed far from this path and you appear to have misunderstood my opinion of the use of both recorded backing tracks and an accompanist. My opinion of neither of these have any bearing on how viledin4u may find a good singing teacher for an inexperienced singer.

But for your benefit alone Rosfrog. I am a singer of lieder and french chanson at beyond grade 8 standard and as such it is imperative for me to have a piano accompanist of note to complete the duo requirements in the art form.

I also regularly use recorded backing accompaniments but , apart from for practice and warming up, these are not for me .Whereas my efforts are to stick to the spirit of the question posed on finding a singing teacher.The backing accompaniments you allude to which professional singers use, may not be affordable to singing students or amateur singers and they will not be appropriate for singers who will have not yet learned the art of singing.

The vocal folds are very robust and with good sense they repair themselves in time. I bow to your greater depth of knowledge of medical conditions caused by overstressing the vocal folds. and I hope, as a singer, never to need your services.


You may feel that you wish to open a thread in discussion of your clinical voice specialist expertise on the question of overstressed vocal folds. But may I suggest that it has no place in a thread which asks for advice about how you find a good singing teacher. Perhaps this thread may not be received in the intended way or in the spirit of starting singing by inexperienced singers?

[ExpressYourself]

I'm completely confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

But just one more thing about backing tracks... I purchase mine for about one pound each and the quality is fabulous. I use amazon or karaoke-version

[ExpressYourself]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Viledin4u]

Thanks for all your advice. I have passed on some info to my friend and is now up to her to pursue things in a way that she sees fit.

(...stop yer squabbling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/peace2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/peace.gif) )