Naturally Musically talented and gifted children, does they exist, Options

[onemoretime]

I am posting here, not just for teachers but had to put it somewhere.
My daughters class teacher has suggested she may be gifted and talented where music is concerned.
As she practices for aprox 2 hours a day, I would like to think that she had some ability and had made progress and of course the two private lessons we pay for are worth it.
The teacher concerned admits she knows nothing much about music and it is only a normal state primary school not specialist at all.
My daughter struggled to talk and went to speech therapy but only needs to hear a song and from being a baby could sing it back perfect almost 100% of the time. She is 8 now not particularly what I would call gifted. Due to take gr 2 violin soon not done any vocal exam yet but sings gr 3 stuff.
How would anybody tell if a child was particularly gifted as opposed to done alot of practice.
Does it matter about having a diagnosis , would it mean any more if they had a label in terms of opportunities.
Finally, this subject interests me irrespective of my daughters ability, especially regarding the nature/nurture debate. Does anybody know of any relevant and reliable studies I could obtain please?
I would like to hear any opinion as obviously I intend to support and encourage my daughter, but mainly because she loves music and never stops singing, humming, etc.

[FullofWind]

The term used in state schools for gifted children is the top 10% within a year group. So within her school they may see her as gifted and in another state school she could be the bottom 10% so it depends on the cohort.

How long has she been practising for two hours per day and is this on the violin?

[anacrusis]

Yes there is a spectrum of natural aptitude for music, and yes, practice makes much difference too: whilst aptitude can speed up rate of acquisition, it can't totally substitute for practice. If the child's aptitude has been rated as above average, then the services reckon putting some cash into promoting learning more will be worthwhile (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

In all honesty though, what matters just as much is whether the child wants to do it or not: if she's humming a lot, she's effectively practising, though tuition, and therefore focusing that practice, would bring more.

My two have some aptitude, but have ultimately opted to go their own way on this one, but why not try out to see if she likes it, and go from there?

[Seer_Green]

There are no easy answers to any of the points you raise. For me, they probably raise a whole load more questions... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

My immediate reaction is how do we define gifted and talented? What makes someone who is gifted at something better than the next? What does having a talent for something really mean in practice? At the end of the day, will one person's definition be the same as the next? I was recently presented with two new pupils: one parent assured me that their child was very talented at music; the other was unsure. To my mind, in reality, the exact opposite was the case.

Does it matter about having a 'diagnosis'? To me: no! To my mind, the terms gifted and talented have been introduced to make up for an education system in which it is, to put it frankly, an annoyance to be different. It is, in many places, unfashionable to be good at something. Plus, it only revolves the circle once more, back to the questions of how do we define gifted and talented?

In my experience, it is true that some pupils have a more natural ability for music than others. That might be because of the way they learn or because of an 'inner' feeling for music. They are few and far between, but they have maybe a little extra spark which others don't have. It's one of those things I think you know it when you find it.

Most of the story you present is familiar to me. I hear it on a regular basis from parents keen for their child to start lessons. The opinion you've had is, as you say, from a school teacher with little experience. They may be comparing your daughter to others in the class, and in that situation, it's quite easy for the musical one to stand out. What would happen if they were compared to a wider group of musicians? I can't tell you either way as I've never heard her. The school teacher may be quite right.

As a parent, the questions you're asking are very valid, and as I say, there are no easy answers. At the end of the day, you want to support and encourage her, and that's the most important thing. If you strongly feel that there's something musical about her which is worth 'tapping' into, then seeking the opinion of a specialist teacher would be valuable. Like me, they'll have been presented with many pupils over the years and will have a good idea of where your daughter...at this moment in time...may fit in alongside this. They would also be able to advise what's the best way for you to support this. Some may feel that you're already doing all that's necessary; others may suggest more.

Sorry for above meanderings... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[onemoretime]

The term used in state schools for gifted children is the top 10% within a year group. So within her school they may see her as gifted and in another state school she could be the bottom 10% so it depends on the cohort.

How long has she been practising for two hours per day and is this on the violin?

she has been practising for this long for about 6 months now, we are a musical family of sorts although I never really touch clarinet anymore. It is not all at once more staggered through the day. She started playing piano not seriously though about 2, just plonking about really. Started violin aug 2010 and singing lessons nov 2011. Thanks to Young Musician she is determined to audition for a JD at 11 which we are supporting but even though we encourage her, it has mostly come from her.
Her Dad is a pro musician though and she is used to seeing lots of gigs, concerts and family friends who are mostly musicians, and leaders in their field.

[notmusimum]

I'm a non-musical parent with a multi-instrumentalist for a daughter.

I'm not sure that I would take too much notice of being told my daughter is talented by someone wiht limited experience. In the early stages I wouldn't have been able to judge and even now I wouldn't be keen to say. Putting a label on a young child can be a huge burden. It might be nice to just enjoy her progress, encourage, support and watch her grow as a musician.

Mine was a bit of a sponge, particularly in the early stages but there did come a time when she couldn't make the rapid progress she was used to. I guess this is something that comes to most young musicians and it has to be worked through. I

If you really want JD it is possible to go before age 11 but check out it's everything you want it to be before you do, and I do know people who have started young and left as teenagers.

[barncottagecat]

When I realised that my daughter might be quite good at the fiddle and was not being helped by a less than interested school teacher (though I am not suggesting that yours is like this, by the way), I found out the names of the best teachers in my local area and asked for consultation lessons.

It was very easy, because most of them were not interested in a 9 year old girl who had a grade 2 distinction. One of them did see us, after which he agreed to give lessons a go. She has had 1-2 lessons a week, over the holidays too because she can't bear to miss them. That was a little over 3 years ago, and the rest is history - she's working towards her dipABRSM now......

[violincjj]

I've taught violin now for 20 years (eeek!) and I have a large number of sons who learned to play too. I also teach singing!

It's great that your daughter wants to play and sing and practise, I strongly suspect that your school teacher is telling you (honestly) what she thinks you want to hear and there is nothing wrong with that, especially as you recognise that she has limited knowledge in the field.

I believe passionately that every kid can learn to play and sing. Every single one. That's the real joy of my job that I get to find a way that makes that work for all the kids I teach. But the 'gifted' ones that I teach pick things up very quickly, I show them something new and they do it, they apply what they learn in another appropriate situation and they make connections between things that make artistic sense.

Some of my students have gone to JRNCM, Chets, NCO, got music scholarships at swanky schools (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so I am probably aware of the degree of 'talent' needed for those things, write me a PM if you'd like to talk about your daughter or to come to a violin group class with my students, I run these monthly, it would be fun for her to play with others who love their violins also!

[dolce@piano]

Where I live, any 8 year-old who can play a little Bach or Mozart ditty half-way passably is labeled as 'gifted'.

It is basically a non-musical environment and the primary school teachers find it genuinely amazing that a young person can play 8 bars of music with both hands playing at the same time !!! (I'm talking piano . . .)

If your daughter has 3 music teachers, ask them whether they fell that she is gifted or talented or simply hard-working. They will give you an informed answer.

[notmusimum]

There are a few things in your original post which are quite worrying to me. Have you asked the question: Should an 8 year old be putting in 2 hours practise a day?
How much time does she spend on her school homework?

I agree with much of your post

The two hours practice didn't surprise me as I could have easily claimed Emsoboe did two hours practice at age almost 10 when she started. Everytime I looked at her she had an instrument of some description in her hand. Looking back I realise even though there were exams involved much of what she did was messing around and fun. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. Things become serious as they get older and mature and there is plenty of time for that.

[BadStrad]

Lots of interesting points in you post "Onemoretime".
Regular forumites will know I have no truck with the whole gifted and talented labels. I think they are dangerous and ultimately destructive, de-motivational tools. I think it's fair that I point out my response comes from the perspective.

The teacher is not a music specialist, but you don't need to be to spot a player who has received training and who hasn't. I suspect that is what the teacher is noticing - that your child plays well/seems musical because she has put the time and effort in to her musical education - not some mythical talent. She might be marking out your child as the school has funding, or can get it, for a "gifted and talented" programme.
I would agree with you that her hours of practice on top of the lessons are what makes her stand out as the superior musician in her class.

As for singing back songs - most children are very good mimics - they have to be it's how we learn to talk. Your daughter has grown up in a musical household and dabbled at the piano from age two. All the exposure and exploration will have contributed to the development of her musical ear. It's interesting that you mention she could sing when she struggled to speak. I can't remember the paper/reference of the top of my head, (maybe Oliver Sachs?) but there are studies of people who can sing, but struggle to communicate in other ways - such as those who have had strokes. There is one study of a guy with short term memory loss who can only get dressed by singing the "getting dressed song." You could try http://www.amazon.com/Musicophilia-Tales-M...s/dp/1400040817 for further reading, or http://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Brain-Musi.../ref=pd_sim_b_2 From what I remember there are many parts of the brain associated with music, so it is more diffused across the brain and therefore can be accessible when spoken language isn't.

From the point of view of labelling, as I said I think they are harmful at the least. The first half of this book http://www.amazon.com/Bounce-Federer-Picas...7540&sr=1-1 says much about talent vs hard work. And for an interesting study you could try http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psyc.../ref=pd_sim_b_3 Both books pretty much say "hard work is where it is at" and that talent is a myth - which I wholly agree with. More importantly they point to talent and gifted based praise as resulting in poor achievement when compared to effort based praise.

So from your daughter's point of view it might be worth letting the school label her if it means she gets better opportunities (but if you search the forums there are several posts that point to the "gifted and talented" programmes not being great for music students - though some must be). My caveat would be - whatever you decide - tell her it's her effort and hard work that's making her a good player not some mythical talent.

On a more personal note - I think you daughter is very lucky to have such a supportive parent.

[onemoretime]

Lots of interesting points in you post "Onemoretime".
Regular forumites will know I have no truck with the whole gifted and talented labels. I think they are dangerous and ultimately destructive, de-motivational tools. I think it's fair that I point out my response comes from the perspective.

The teacher is not a music specialist, but you don't need to be to spot a player who has received training and who hasn't. I suspect that is what the teacher is noticing - that your child plays well/seems musical because she has put the time and effort in to her musical education - not some mythical talent. She might be marking out your child as the school has funding, or can get it, for a "gifted and talented" programme.
I would agree with you that her hours of practice on top of the lessons are what makes her stand out as the superior musician in her class.

As for singing back songs - most children are very good mimics - they have to be it's how we learn to talk. Your daughter has grown up in a musical household and dabbled at the piano from age two. All the exposure and exploration will have contributed to the development of her musical ear. It's interesting that you mention she could sing when she struggled to speak. I can't remember the paper/reference of the top of my head, (maybe Oliver Sachs?) but there are studies of people who can sing, but struggle to communicate in other ways - such as those who have had strokes. There is one study of a guy with short term memory loss who can only get dressed by singing the "getting dressed song." You could try http://www.amazon.com/Musicophilia-Tales-M...s/dp/1400040817 for further reading, or http://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Brain-Musi.../ref=pd_sim_b_2 From what I remember there are many parts of the brain associated with music, so it is more diffused across the brain and therefore can be accessible when spoken language isn't.

From the point of view of labelling, as I said I think they are harmful at the least. The first half of this book http://www.amazon.com/Bounce-Federer-Picas...7540&sr=1-1 says much about talent vs hard work. And for an interesting study you could try http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psyc.../ref=pd_sim_b_3 Both books pretty much say "hard work is where it is at" and that talent is a myth - which I wholly agree with. More importantly they point to talent and gifted based praise as resulting in poor achievement when compared to effort based praise.

So from your daughter's point of view it might be worth letting the school label her if it means she gets better opportunities (but if you search the forums there are several posts that point to the "gifted and talented" programmes not being great for music students - though some must be). My caveat would be - whatever you decide - tell her it's her effort and hard work that's making her a good player not some mythical talent.

On a more personal note - I think you daughter is very lucky to have such a supportive parent.

Thanks very much for the info regarding further reading, I will have a look when I get time. My husband always says that to be a competent musician it takes x amount of hours practice. I can't remember the number but no doubt will post it when he next tells me.
Also thank you to the other posters with words of support and encouragement.
I know that one day the homework will be important and we will have to look at cutting other activities out but for now she doesn't have any.
I think its up to us as parents to encourage all we can when our children are passionate about something. We are giving her the opportunity to get to the level where she is able to have choices and then of course it is up to her what she decides. Even though I secretly hopes she chooses music.

There are a few things in your original post which are quite worrying to me. Have you asked the question: Should an 8 year old be putting in 2 hours practise a day?
How much time does she spend on her school homework?

I agree with much of your post

The two hours practice didn't surprise me as I could have easily claimed Emsoboe did two hours practice at age almost 10 when she started. Everytime I looked at her she had an instrument of some description in her hand. Looking back I realise even though there were exams involved much of what she did was messing around and fun. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. Things become serious as they get older and mature and there is plenty of time for that.

Hello notmusimum.
It sounds like your daughter has lots of fun. If you don't mind me asking what age is she now and and what sort of level? I ask out of interest for your daughter and it would be nice to hear how somebody with a similar start progressed. My apologies if this is too pertinent a question.

[Chris H]

My advice to you, Onemoretime, is to do exactly what Barncottagecat did with her daughter and find the best teacher you can straight away. My son showed signs of musicality which I ignored, hoping it would go away! It didn't, and now I am annoyed with myself that I didn't get him a better teacher immediately.

[notmusimum]

My advice to you, Onemoretime, is to do exactly what Barncottagecat did with her daughter and find the best teacher you can straight away. My son showed signs of musicality which I ignored, hoping it would go away! It didn't, and now I am annoyed with myself that I didn't get him a better teacher immediately.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Having the right teacher is the most important thing one the child can bond with as well as being very good at what they do.

[violincjj]

A long time ago I read some research from John Sloboda at Keele University that said that the single strongest influence for success in musical achievement was the quality of the relationship between the student and their first teacher.

Presumably because if it is not good they give up more often! But I think there is a bigger truth here that others have said - getting the best teacher/student combination matters enormously.