Film Scores, Classical music Options

[Robodoc]

A couple of recent threads have set me thinking:
Classic music defining characteristics thread
B&W film thread

In the first of these this was posted;

". . . I personally would not classify (say) a film theme as classical music just because it's played by a symphony orchestra."

The second was about films, which made me wonder about great original film scores which unquestionably ARE classical music, for example:

The Sea Hawk, 1940, original score by Erich Korngold.
Henry V, 1944, original score by William Walton.
Scott of the Antarctic, 1948, original score by Ralph Vaughan-Williams.

There are others which borrow from the classical Genre, such as 2001 a Space Oddessy, Death in Venice and Brief Encounter but it isn't the same thing.

Which leads me to 2 questions:

Firstly, what's your favourite film score?
Secondly, if a piece of music is written for orchestra, even for a film score, why might it NOT be considered classical music?

[skylark]

I love too many film scores to choose a favourite, but I'll pick a couple of John Barry's to start with...

- Out of Africa

- The Last Valley (which isn't a well known one so here's the City of Prague Philharmonic rehearsing the theme... shades of Roses from the South in parts? - eg from around 35"?)


I think I'll leave speculation on your second question to the experts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Oboecop]

Well it changes from day to day but at the moment I'm really loving the Ladies in Lavender music. I know its really cliche but I think Joshua Bell is a really great violinist.

In terms of defining things as classical music the obvious first argument is that classical music is a term for a specific period in music and as such no originally composed film music should be classed as classical music.
But of course the term classical music has now become an umbrella term for all "serious" music and therefore I suppose you could use it for film music.

[mel2]

I know we keep being told how radical some of the music of Beethoven and Haydn was in its day, but nevertheless there is a kind of narrative thread in it that makes it possible to listen through and follow the internal dialogue until its conclusion. Despite studying music from the Second Viennese school and the styles it spawned, I don't think I have ever bought a CD of the music of Berg or sat through an entire opera composed in the last 10 years, simply because they all sound the same to me.

That is a terrible admission to make.

Film scores, however, are composed to be popular and that will probably reduce their merit to that of a print of The Haywain.
They are symphonic superficially but I doubt if they follow sonata form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) For those like me who sit through the complete list of credits (to the annoyance of the cinema staff with their bin bags) it is apparent that there is a second movement with a complete contrast in character. I don't know if this is to satisfy an artistic need for a second theme or if it is tacked on to accommodate increasingly long lists of credits.

Hans Zimmer seems to be ubiquitous at the moment, but that may just indicate the type of films I watch.
(Can't get enough of Madagascar 2 at the moment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/party1.gif) )

[Robodoc]

In terms of defining things as classical music the obvious first argument is that classical music is a term for a specific period in music and as such no originally composed film music should be classed as classical music.
But of course the term classical music has now become an umbrella term for all "serious" music and therefore I suppose you could use it for film music.

Stuff and nonsense: The word "classical" as applied to music means both the specific period and the general style also referred to occasionally as Western Art Music, depending on context: By your definition Poulenc, Messien, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, even Rachmaninov, Liszt, Brahms and Chopin would not count as classical music. This is clearly ridiculous: None of them are classical period music but they are all classical music, to say nothing of the 3 scores mentioned in my original post (The Sea Hawk, Henry V, Scott of the Antarctic).

. . .They are symphonic superficially but I doubt if they follow sonata form.

I would be very surprised if a film score followed sonata form but I cannot believe that you are suggesting that music which does not follow sontata form should not be considered classical music: Even confining yourself to orchestral scores, where would that leave ballet, opera, tone poems, or those compositions that predate Haydn? Sorry, this just won't do!

[mel2]

I would be very surprised if a film score followed sonata form but I cannot believe that you are suggesting that music which does not follow sontata form should not be considered classical music: Even confining yourself to orchestral scores, where would that leave ballet, opera, tone poems, or those compositions that predate Haydn? Sorry, this just won't do!

When I said this I followed it with a big grin. Do keep a sense of proportion, doc!

I have no idea what kind of structural scheme these undoubtedly successful composers follow because I have never studied it. Even at its zenith, sonata form was only one of many musical designs. I think it was skylark who started the thread about what constitutes classical music, and there are as many views as there are people who hold them. It just goes to show what dangerous waters we find ourselves in if we insist on giving everything a label.

[river]

i'm not a big fan of film scores, but i do like Hans Zimmer's score for the Crimson Tide soundtrack.

as to whether film scores can be classical music; well, i won't try to define classical music, but in general i'd say classical music is music which either stands on its own, or with another 'classical' art form, such as opera or ballet. while film scores have a lot in common with programme music, it goes further in that the theme is defined by the film, and the score is written to fit around that. compare that with opera, for example, where the score and libretto go hand in hand, and it's that which defines the work; the things which are essential to film or (non-musical) theatre, such as plot, characters, etc., are secondary. (that's not to say those things aren't important, but the work is defined primarily by the music.)

if a particularly strong score is performed on its own, does that make it classical music? i don't think so; it's still part of the film, you've just removed the rest of it. the score is an essential part of some films, but if you remove the score, it's still a film; so if take a film and remove the photography and spoken/incidental sound, you're still left with a film score. to draw another comparison to opera, the William Tell overture is often performed on its own, but it's still an operatic overture.

[Oboecop]

Ah but by my definition (actually not my definition but more of an observation) of classical music being an umbrella term for all 'serious'' music, Poulenc, Schostakovich etc. would all easily class as classical. Of course 'serious' music is just as ambiguous as classical in this context. I think that music with some sort of traditional basis, be it the ensemble/instruments or the compositional style could be described as classical music. There is a grey area though.

The music from The Red Violin is pretty cool as well.

[sarah123]

I, personally, would classify film music of the John Williams etc ish variety as classical (the is an awful lot of film music which is not at all 'classical'!), but I think of classical music to mean music of a particular sound (well lots of different sounds...) rather than for a particular purpose.

I can never decide whether the Lord of the Rings or Pirates of the Caribbean music is my favourite. I'm possibly leaning towards Lord of the Rings at the moment, but I'm sure I'll have changed my mind in a couple of days.

[skylark]

This is a BBC Proms performance of William Walton's "Battle in the Air" from the film The Battle of Britain (it starts at about 1'10). If I didn't know it was from a film and heard it performed at a concert, I would think it was "classical music". So why isn't it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Crotchetymum]

I love the music for Schindler's List (John Williams), Pirates of the Caribbean, and 1492 Conquest of Paradise, which I have never seen, but heard the music somewhere and think it's wonderful (Vangelis).

[Robodoc]

In terms of defining things as classical music the obvious first argument is that classical music is a term for a specific period in music and as such no originally composed film music should be classed as classical music.

and

Ah but by my definition (actually not my definition but more of an observation) of classical music being an umbrella term for all 'serious'' music, Poulenc, Schostakovich etc. would all easily class as classical.

No, the classical period (about 1750 to 1825) definitely excludes all those I mentioned (Modern or Romantic) as well as all Baroque composers (e.g. J.S. Bach) and, naturally, all film scores.

. . . I think of classical music to mean music of a particular sound (well lots of different sounds...) rather than for a particular purpose.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

This is a BBC Proms performance of William Walton's "Battle in the Air" from the film The Battle of Britain (it starts at about 1'10).

Nice link

If I didn't know it was from a film and heard it performed at a concert, I would think it was "classical music". So why isn't it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I think it is - that's rather my point.

[sbhoa]

Our conductor has introduced film music as the 'classical' music of today.
I hadn't thought of it that way until she said it but she's probably about right.
Wasn't the 'classical' music of Mozart etc. the 'popular' music of the day?

[sarah123]

Wasn't the 'classical' music of Mozart etc. the 'popular' music of the day?

Someone I'm sure will put me right on this, but the impression that I'd got was that it wasn't: that it was mainly the equivalent of film music and possibly the likes of Reich and Glass today. The equivalent to pop music would be more along the lines of folk music. Most normal people would probably never have heard Mozart etc.

[guilmant]

This is a BBC Proms performance of William Walton's "Battle in the Air" from the film The Battle of Britain (it starts at about 1'10). If I didn't know it was from a film and heard it performed at a concert, I would think it was "classical music". So why isn't it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

This is quite an interesting example, as Walton was only brought in comparatively late in the day for this film. Ron Goodwin composed most of the music for the film, but it was felt that it needed a bigger name to tie it all up. The soundtrack of the film I have is excellent as it presents both the Goodwin and the Walton.

Of course, John WIlliams (most famously) and others, used the classical technique of 'leitmotif' from Wagner to symbolise places, characters, emotions etc. The Star Wars series of 6 films is a good eaxmple of this.

A good place to explore the classical composers v film composers debate is with the Chandos film music series, of which I have most of them. Vaughan Williams/Shostakovich etc rub shoulders with the likes of the Ron Goodwin and Richard Rodney Bennett. Stuck somewhere in the middle are people like Auric (anyone for The Titfield Thunderbolt?) who was involved with a number of the Ealing Comedies, and his non film music has much in common with his film music.