"I don't need singing lessons -, I can already sing" Options

[ExpressYourself]

On the subject of scales (I know nothing about singing) I don't think grade 8 piano scales are any easier or harder than string or wind scales. For both string and wind instruments intonation plays a role, which it doesn't on a piano, and on wind instruments the fingering is all over the place. I think ABRSM has attempted to make scale requirements equivalent on each instrument. Scales a third and a sixth apart on a piano aren't hugely different from scales an octave apart in my opinion (and I like the way they sound, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

I can tell you, those thirds and sixths are a right pain in the neck in singing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[sbhoa]

On the subject of scales (I know nothing about singing) I don't think grade 8 piano scales are any easier or harder than string or wind scales. For both string and wind instruments intonation plays a role, which it doesn't on a piano, and on wind instruments the fingering is all over the place. I think ABRSM has attempted to make scale requirements equivalent on each instrument. Scales a third and a sixth apart on a piano aren't hugely different from scales an octave apart in my opinion (and I like the way they sound, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

I can tell you, those thirds and sixths are a right pain in the neck in singing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Have briefly visited scales in thirds on clarinet..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clarinet.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Halka]

Have briefly visited scales in thirds on clarinet..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clarinet.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Daughter's teacher told her she should practise clarinet scales in thirds in all the major keys, insisting that bits of scales in thirds often come up in clarinet music. Unfortunately, she's not really got down to practising scales at all, let alone in 3rds, since disposing of all those set at grade 8....

[anacrusis]

*doesn't need lessons on scale playing, can already play the recorder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)*


.....as for those who sing, respec' folks, hats off. It's a skill well beyond me, and will remain so. Warbling in family or community settings is a world away from being able to control the fine nuances of tone for maximum expressivity at all sorts of volume, without damage to the vocal folds,. For that one needs proper tuition, and rather a lot of proper practice, and even then not all will become real singers.

[soccermom]

I can tell you, those thirds and sixths are a right pain in the neck in singing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Warbling in family or community settings is a world away from being able to control the fine nuances of tone for maximum expressivity at all sorts of volume, without damage to the vocal folds,. For that one needs proper tuition, and rather a lot of proper practice, and even then not all will become real singers.

I'm sure we can all agree on that.

[Dulcet]

Until I started singing a lot in a small group I would probably have agreed about difficulty of the exams. Now I have done some completely terrible arranging of music for a capella female voices which has involved large jumps in the lowest part (mine) I understand the real technical difficulties involved in making it sound good - it's every bit as difficult (if not more so) than jumps of 2 octaves on a wind instrument. If all you've ever done is "just sing" then I don't think you can really appreciate the difference between singing and SINGING.

[BitterSweet]

Many people find learning to sing the unaccompanied song is hard because you have to keep in tune by yourself without anyhelp.

I'm going to be honest, I am very glad I don't have to learn all the scale requirements for singing. But then, if I had to sing scales that would be a whole lot easier than singing a traditional song unaccompanied.

Conversely, I think actually sight-singing is pecularly difficult compared to instruments. I actually read the music totally differently as a singer when I am sight singing verses reading. Piano sight reading always seems like a doddle. It's actually the one piano skill I am reasonable at!

My view is that everyone can sing, everyone would benefit from lessons, but not everyone can be a singer. I have only felt that I can claim the title in the last year, and that's because I can sight read fairly fluently now.

People who say 'I don't need lessons' are usually arrogant, uneducated (about the nature of good singing, and the biology of how singing works) or they're trying to deliberately belittle the person they're saying it to. Anyone who is truly a singer will know the value of continued training throughout their lives.

[Chris H]

On the subject of scales (I know nothing about singing) I don't think grade 8 piano scales are any easier or harder than string or wind scales. For both string and wind instruments intonation plays a role, which it doesn't on a piano, and on wind instruments the fingering is all over the place. I think ABRSM has attempted to make scale requirements equivalent on each instrument. Scales a third and a sixth apart on a piano aren't hugely different from scales an octave apart in my opinion (and I like the way they sound, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

I can tell you, those thirds and sixths are a right pain in the neck in singing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Have briefly visited scales in thirds on clarinet..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clarinet.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) There's a bit of a difference between scales a third apart and scales in thirds. I think scales a third apart would be impossible on the clarinet!

[MKP]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

O dear.....the innocence of youth.....you know, I can run...maybe I should enter the 100 metres in Brazil??

[AnnC]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

O dear.....the innocence of youth.....you know, I can run...maybe I should enter the 100 metres in Brazil??

Try if you want, but you won't beat me! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[vectistim]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

O dear.....the innocence of youth.....you know, I can run...maybe I should enter the 100 metres in Brazil??

Try if you want, but you won't beat me! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I've never lost an Olympic 100m race.

[Maria]

My view is that everyone can sing, everyone would benefit from lessons, but not everyone can be a singer. I have only felt that I can claim the title in the last year, and that's because I can sight read fairly fluently now.

I agree with what you say about singing. Interestingly I am also just getting to the point where I could say I am a 'singer' (although I still feel a bit uncomfortable typing that) although I can't sight read well at all! I would say that I'm becoming more confident in handling the demands of the sort of music I want to be able to sing, in a healthy and safe way. I guess it's pretty hard to define what a 'singer' is!!

[Tenor Viol]

My view is that everyone can sing, everyone would benefit from lessons, but not everyone can be a singer. I have only felt that I can claim the title in the last year, and that's because I can sight read fairly fluently now.

I agree with what you say about singing. Interestingly I am also just getting to the point where I could say I am a 'singer' (although I still feel a bit uncomfortable typing that) although I can't sight read well at all! I would say that I'm becoming more confident in handling the demands of the sort of music I want to be able to sing, in a healthy and safe way. I guess it's pretty hard to define what a 'singer' is!!

Sympathise. I've always been wary of describing myself as a "musician" even though I have performed a lot including concerts at Bridgewater Hall, RAH, and a couple of short TV operas for BBC2. I usually prepend 'amateur' in front of 'musician'

[SingingPython]

I think I found 3rds and 6ths harder on violin than on piano, by a fair distance. The real killer though was G major in 10ths. I don't know if that was ever in any of the UK syllabuses, I was doing AMEB. The following year they cut the grade 8 violin scales in half and cut out 10ths altogether.

The comment above from a parent concerned that their son hadn't learnt anything from doing well in a poorly prepared exam I can understand - sometimes children to whom things come easily actually need to be brought up short when they haven't put any effort into something they could have done better. But in terms of how easily a child singing in a serious choir might approach grade exams, bear in mind that the cathedral and college choirs typically describe their choristers being at roughly grade 8 equivalent standard when they finish in year 8. In less intensive choirs I wouldn't expect the level reached to be the same, but still significant. (I've 2 children just about to embark on chorister training ... here starts the adventure!).

Having only sung informally myself, though heavily informed by my instrumental tuition and experience, I will be interested in observing how "serious" singing and singing lessons feeds my children's instrumental work. Not sure how much practice the eldest is really going to maintain though (she will be boarding).

[silverfoxx]

Hey all!

I'm just wondering how you would answer this.
It was said by a (closet*) grade 8 violinist while I was doing my GCSEs and was one of the reasons I gave up (she then sang a few very off-key notes very badly). She was one of the popular girls and rather mean but it's something that's stuck with me. My "musical" friends told me to just ignore her but they were "proper" musicians - they played the clarinet, violin, piano etc.
Also, people like my nan think that grade 8 singing is nothing compared to other things like SkateUK levels (grade 8 singing = A level, SkateUK level 10 = year 6 SATs - they mean nothing in the long run).

How would you answer these things?
(I'm not trying to down-play singing, rather bump it up in peoples' views)


*No-one knew she played the violin until she turned up with it in a performance lesson. Obviously she loved it but it wasn't cool enough.

"I don't need singing lessons -, I can already sing"
i'm just wondering how you would answer this.

Pin your lug-holes back and prepare to have them blasted from the sides of your head!

The culmination of all of the ABRSM graded exams is grade 8 and a pass at this level holds QCF level 3 ward (32 credits) in graded exams in music performance . This means that had the violinist plucked her chin from her violin long enough to look around she may have noticed that a grade 8 in singing holds the same credit.

What the violinist seems to hold is this unsustainable idea that instrumentalists are musicians and singers are not, or are at the very least some lessor form of musicians.

Instrumentalists learn to play something which has definite meaning in terms of pitch, timbre and dynamics. To play this instrument in any other way is either thought of as bad form , or as advanced and inspired technique. To pluck a string here, whilst holding down the string there results in this note.

It is true to say that every human can make some noise which is natural. Some make sounds which are more pleasing to the ear than others. But how it is done correctly, given that humans have to do this by physically manipulating a very complicated series of muscles and delicately balance these, is surely mind boggling?

A singer's instrument is the whole of the human body. An orchestral instrument is made synthetically using materials carefully selected sometimes by an artisan to make a particular sound and only that sound as the instrument is very limited in the range of sounds which it can make. The human body is organic and you cannot simply press here to get that sound there. It's much more complex than that. A violin sound can be resumed by the simple replacement of a broken string or changing something tangible about how you hold it or draw a bow across it.

I can play every instrument ever invented. But I would be delighted if I could play any of them any better than badly, in the same way that your violinist attempted to sing. So it is with singers. They practice playing this very complicated instrument of theirs to Masters Degree level and perhaps only then do they achieve the highest results in artistic terms. Instrumentalists may have reached a level near to their best immediately after grade 8 equivalent (a benchmark for audition to some orchestras) and then they may feel they have made it.

Singing correctly takes much more time to perfect than inorganic pieces of kit which have been designed to ping, bong, parp or make any other sound you may imagine. The human voice is so complex and so wonderful that it can make all of these sounds and some sounds not yet invented.

Is this the kind of answer you need to get on with your singing practice?