Ceiling limit Options

[MNW]

I was speaking to a music teacher today and we were talking about the 10,000 hour rule where that is the amount of practice one needs to be a master at something. She then said that she didn't agree with this philosophy as she felt some students did not have the ability to go beyond a certain level and eventhough they were diligent and worked hard they could never reach a certain level.

In some ways it must be true or the world would be filled with concert pianists but is there a ceiling limit to one's abilities and how can it be spotted? Would it be obvious for a teacher to spot or would it only become apparent after multiple failed attempts at a piece/exam etc? From a teachers point of view, would you ever tell a pupil that they had reached that ceiling?

[Inacka]

I have to say that I completely disagree with that music teacher. It's not simply about working hard or diligently, both of which are required. It's more about how you're doing that diligent and hard work. It's hard to describe, but there's a certain edge that you need to be pushing, and you need to be working just beyond your comfort zone towards the next level. Usually this requires a teacher to show you the way, at least in the beginning. It's easy to want to be a master, but the little steps necessary to get there may not be so clear. I've seen this with my "students" and those I've tutored. Those that ask questions and constantly strive to be better than they are, and figure out what their problem areas are and work on them, always succeed after sufficient time. Those that hit a ceiling are usually happy just doing what they're told, and/or can't truly envision that next level to get to. I think the reason there aren't too many concert pianists (or whatever other talent you can think of) is that it takes a LOT of consistent, hard, focused work. It's not easy working in that zone that helps you to improve. Usually life gets in the way, and people realize that they have other priorities and don't want to or can't invest the necessary time and energy.

I do believe in natural affinity though (not talent), so some may get there well ahead of the 10,000 hours, and others may take longer. Sometimes experience in other areas can help you knock off some of these hours too.

[lottie]

I don't agree with telling pupils they've reached their ceiling. I think people should be encouraged to 'improve' whatever the circumstances and it's possible to cope with a ceiling with variations in repertoire so that someone still gains enjoyment.

I believe in unlimited ambition because it makes you push yourself. Does it matter if you 'spot' your ceiling?


My ceiling as a clarinettist was far higher than my ceiling as a violist or pianist. I was desperate (in my youth) to be a concert pianist but I gradually realised I fell very very far short. However I was well on my way to a successful professional career as a clarinettist. Now that I only play the viola my ceiling is clearly in the low ranks and I push myself very gently but accept my limitations and hugely enjoy what I do achieve.

But I refuse to place a ceiling on my full-time profession (I am a painter). There I am driven to improve each day regardless of what I might achieve long term and despite the fact I am already a professional.

Reach for the stars and you may reach the moon. Don't reach for the stars and you fall back to earth.

[miffy]

Ceilings are a tricky one. I think people can get to a point where they are not going to get a huge amount better - as you said, there'd be concert pianists everywhere otherwise! And perhaps there are different types of ceiling too, technical, emotional, mental, musical..
But there's always room for improvement too, within your 'limit', and of course so much repertoire at all standards that there's also the room for great personal achievement and fulfilment.

Absolutely there's such a thing as talent, but talent alone won't do the job.

[Bagpuss]

I have never once told a pupil he/she had "reached their ceiling". I don't believe there is any such thing for each individual plays for a different reason with different aims. I can honestly say I am still learning and discovering musically and I'm not sure that should ever stop. I probably put in far more hours practising the piano as a youngster (and still do) whereas playing the flute/recorder is something I can just do. Alpha Male Jazz Cat is a professional performer but has never been the type to sit and practise solidly for hours at a time. Funnily enough we were talking about that just yesterday and he said he never did as a kid, nor at conservatoire and not now.

I dislike the term "ceiling limit". We are all different - I can run but if I trained for 10,000 hours would I beat Usain Bolt? Nah....

Ceiling-Bag x

[sunil]

I, for the one who always believe in 10,000 hour rule but that has to be backed up with dedication, proper mentoring, enthusiasm and physical / mental abilities. At young ages, we as parents has to motivate the children and manage the time accordingly (sometimes called as Pushy)

But ceiling (or brick wall), yes! Age and family commitments, IMHO

[allegro2011]

I would also never tell a pupil that they have reached their 'ceiling' because they can still get a lot of enjoyment from music at the level they have reached. Also they do sometimes surprise you with an unexpected burst of progress: have been teaching one girl the piano for probably 7 years now and she has been at about grade 4 standard for 2 years with hopeless sight reading and such slow work on pieces. All of a sudden she has been able to read new pieces hands together and quite fluently in lessons. She says it suddenly makes sense.

I do believe that you have to have natural musical ability to become an outstanding player, but this has to be coupled with dedication and hard work.

[Alicia Ocean]

My views have changed a little in recent years. I would have said that anyone can achieve anything - until I started with the pupil who has tons of enthusiasm, time, money (lots of money - to take on an accompanist for extra practice sessions each week, and another teacher for theory despite me teaching theory too, and another teacher to help with aural tests, and another teacher for any singing that might come up in aural tests - but this pupil has no rhythm. No rhythm at all. We've even been to see a consultant on this in another city (money no object). Having scraped a grade 5 pass after nearly ten years I really despair that grade 6 will ever be possible - to be honest I suspect that there are more people out there with this problem but they generally give up before it becomes this silly.

[Aquarelle]

I do not believe in ceilings as such because I think one can always be even just a tiny bit better. But I do have pupils who ceiling "for the moment". These are the youngsters who have put in as much effort as they are capable and willing to offer and who are then overtaken by things outside their control - that is tos say by the demands of school work and the fact here that many of them have to do their last three years in secondary education as boarders with no facilities at all for practice.

But rather than think of this as their ceiling I think of it as having put down roots, even if the leaves and flowers will not come up for a bit. What I mean is that later in life they may take up their music again - or they may encourage their own children to go a little further than they were able to go.

[Lemontree]

I was speaking to a music teacher today and we were talking about the 10,000 hour rule where that is the amount of practice one needs to be a master at something. She then said that she didn't agree with this philosophy as she felt some students did not have the ability to go beyond a certain level and eventhough they were diligent and worked hard they could never reach a certain level.

In some ways it must be true or the world would be filled with concert pianists but is there a ceiling limit to one's abilities and how can it be spotted? Would it be obvious for a teacher to spot or would it only become apparent after multiple failed attempts at a piece/exam etc? From a teachers point of view, would you ever tell a pupil that they had reached that ceiling?

Geez. Telling someone to have reached a ceiling is outright stupid. I was told not once but several times by teachers that had no idea I had an IQ of 149, beat a chess fide master when I was 8 yrs old, read literature like Freud, Tucholsky and Stefan Zweig by age 9 (things I thought everyone could and would do) and am now diagnosed a multitalented overachiever by people who actually know what they are talking about.

Just because someone reaches in one opinion a ceiling does not necessarily mean that is a fact. In truth, it might just be that the TEACHER HAS REACHED HIS CEILING!

I was once told I would not get my highschool degree (aside from other things I would never be able to do). I not only got that, I got a university diploma as well. Two things can happen when someone is told such idiocy. One (worst case scenario), the person gives up achieving entirely. Second, the person actually achieves exactly that just because it was told it could not do it. That, however, is not necessarily a good thing as it well might happen that said person choses the wrong thing for pursue just because of such statement and not the thing it is actually meant for. It would have spared me much suffering, if I without bias could have chosen the thing I actually would have loved to do. Instead, I went for the thing others thought I could not do just because the statement had hurt so much.

PS:

The 10,000 hrs rule might be true. But true is also that one can practice 10,000 hours without ever achieving anything if not striving to get better. It also depends a lot on what one wants to do. If there is no need to overcome a ceiling (e.g. certain folk music bands) but the music is pleasing to the ear, why study advanced techniques to make complete use of the instrument.

[Bass Clef]

My views have changed a little in recent years. I would have said that anyone can achieve anything - until I started with the pupil who has tons of enthusiasm, time, money (lots of money - to take on an accompanist for extra practice sessions each week, and another teacher for theory despite me teaching theory too, and another teacher to help with aural tests, and another teacher for any singing that might come up in aural tests - but this pupil has no rhythm. No rhythm at all. We've even been to see a consultant on this in another city (money no object). Having scraped a grade 5 pass after nearly ten years I really despair that grade 6 will ever be possible - to be honest I suspect that there are more people out there with this problem but they generally give up before it becomes this silly.

Hmm... I don't know - Grade 5 in 10 years doesn't seem ridiculous. It sounds like progress is painfully slow but nevertheless it's there. I wouldn't say that this person has necessarily reached a ceiling. For a musical person such as you it might seem like this person has no sense of rhythm, but to achieve a pass at Grade 5, there must be something there.
In my experience, it is also possible to plod along for years, achieving very little, and then suddenly have a bit of an 'epiphany' and make much faster progress. I guess that's kind of what Aquarelle said about 'putting down roots' - perhaps the things you are teaching are getting through to your student but the benefits are just not obvious yet.

[barncottagecat]

The research has shown that apparently, no one who has reached the highest echelons of success in sport, music, etc... has done so with less input in terms of hours.

However, it has not shown that if you do 10,000 hours of practice that you will automatically reach this level. It can't be interpreted both ways.

Relatively few individuals world wide have the internal drive to be able to keep up the pace, so really we impose our own ceilings. Though of course, you can practise all you like, if you haven't got a sound that someone wants to listen to, you aren't going to get very far....

[Cyrilla]

...but this pupil has no rhythm. No rhythm at all. We've even been to see a consultant on this in another city (money no object).

A consultant? In rhythm??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

There ARE ways of helping people develop their sense of pulse and understanding of rhythm - whole body movement is where to start, I think..

But rather than think of this as their ceiling I think of it as having put down roots, even if the leaves and flowers will not come up for a bit. What I mean is that later in life they may take up their music again - or they may encourage their own children to go a little further than they were able to go.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jod]

This person might have reached the ceiling, it does not mean they have reached their potential. Now is the opportunity to move the floor and continue to grow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Never heard such rot about people not being able to continue learning in my life. Maybe the teacher has not found the right key. Honestly I've had too many people put me down, and I ain't beat yet.

Knowing that is my attitude why expect anyone else to do the same.

No such room as failures, just those who have not thrived of succeeded yet!

[miffy]

I can't imagine a teacher would actually tell a student they've hit their ceiling..would they..?
But the problem, I suppose, is that if a teacher thinks this way they may change the way they teach this pupil, and not for the better.

This pupil with a different consultant in every county - sounds like a case of too many cooks to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)