Muse Murder Chopin Options

[Edwardo]

In between listening to Bach, Prokoviev and Rachmaninov, I like a bit of demotic nonsense, and it doesn't get more demotically nonsensical than the band Muse.

So, I got my hands on their latest disc and at the end of the fourth track (not at all pretentiously titled "The United States of Eurasia (+ Collateral Damage)") the guitarist (Matt Bellamy) switches to piano and starts playing Chopin's Nocturne In E flat Major, Op.9 No.2. Ah, I thought, I know this; I can even play it (or I used to be able to, before I forgot how).

And then I got very, very annoyed. Not at the excessive rubato, nor even particularly at the unnecessary, spurious repeated notes, but at the replacement of a short phrase written by Chopin (sublime, obviously) with one written by Bellamy (wooden and lame, I'm afraid).

I have a version of this piece played by, of all people, Angela Hewitt. She has taken some liberties with the ornaments - at least as written in my version. But Bellamy's not taking liberties with the ornaments, he's taking liberties with the melody. And that Just Won't Do.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Edward

[Digby]

Thing is, whilst Chopin is undoubtably the master when it comes to his music - he was at heart an improviser, getting a 'definitive' Chopin score is a nightmare because if he gave a piece to 3 different students he would rewrite great chunks of it specifically for that student so what started as an identical piece would have 4 different versions. He had no intention of his music remaining static.

That said, I've not heard this particular version but it would take a rare person to be able to rewrite sections of a genius like Chopin and the new bit not stick out like a sore thumb as being of very inferior quality.

[Dugazon]

In between listening to Bach, Prokoviev and Rachmaninov, I like a bit of demotic nonsense, and it doesn't get more demotically nonsensical than the band Muse.

So, I got my hands on their latest disc and at the end of the fourth track (not at all pretentiously titled "The United States of Eurasia (+ Collateral Damage)") the guitarist (Matt Bellamy) switches to piano and starts playing Chopin's Nocturne In E flat Major, Op.9 No.2. Ah, I thought, I know this; I can even play it (or I used to be able to, before I forgot how).

And then I got very, very annoyed. Not at the excessive rubato, nor even particularly at the unnecessary, spurious repeated notes, but at the replacement of a short phrase written by Chopin (sublime, obviously) with one written by Bellamy (wooden and lame, I'm afraid).

I have a version of this piece played by, of all people, Angela Hewitt. She has taken some liberties with the ornaments - at least as written in my version. But Bellamy's not taking liberties with the ornaments, he's taking liberties with the melody. And that Just Won't Do.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Edward

yes: it is pop/rock, and therefore shouldn't be measured like classical music. they are not playing/interpreting chopin, but using his music for their own purpose. you can love it or loathe it, but you shouldn't judge it with a "classical ear", because that's comparing apples with pears.

i like muse, even if they also murder "mon coeur s'ouvre a ta voix" on the same cd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Solari]

i like muse, even if they also murder "mon coeur s'ouvre a ta voix" on the same cd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I like Muse too, but I find them a bit hot and cold. They do have some very clever musical ideas (especially the multitudes of great arpeggio work) and some great tracks, but make quite a lot of what I'd class as "filler". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I must see them in concert at some point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[river]

yes: it is pop/rock, and therefore shouldn't be measured like classical music.

+1.

this is a bit like complaining that a classical composer based the theme of a piece on a folk melody, but then changed it a little. music isn't some stone tablet which we must never alter for fear of reprisals from St. Bach.

of course, you're free to dislike it if you want.

[Chopinzee]

Thing is, whilst Chopin is undoubtably the master when it comes to his music - he was at heart an improviser, getting a 'definitive' Chopin score is a nightmare because if he gave a piece to 3 different students he would rewrite great chunks of it specifically for that student so what started as an identical piece would have 4 different versions. He had no intention of his music remaining static.

That said, I've not heard this particular version but it would take a rare person to be able to rewrite sections of a genius like Chopin and the new bit not stick out like a sore thumb as being of very inferior quality.

This is true, and he also did'nt like comitting his work to paper at all, but thankfully he put himself out to do so. I read a review of this Muse album, and it mentioned the Nocturne bit, but there are very few current rock bands that interest me...apart from the metal band Mastodon and a couple of others. Chopin can't be murdered anyway. I once got a pm suggesting my username was insulting to the great man, but Chopinzee was the nickname of the pianist Vladimir De Pachmann whose onstage antics earned him the tag, things like hanging a pair of socks on the piano and claiming they once belonged to Frederic. For me, there is very little if anything anyone can do now to detract from the great composers, even if they mix the music with dance tunes or rap, how can that change anything ?

[Edwardo]

yes: it is pop/rock, and therefore shouldn't be measured like classical music.

+1.

this is a bit like complaining that a classical composer based the theme of a piece on a folk melody, but then changed it a little. music isn't some stone tablet which we must never alter for fear of reprisals from St. Bach.

of course, you're free to dislike it if you want.

The thing is that I don't dislike Muse - I have all their albums and would dearly love to see them live. What irritates me about Bellamy's "version" isn't that he's changed it per se (I love Gabriela Montero, Jacques Loussier etc.), just that he changed it for no discernible musical or artistic reason. Had he improved it, that would have been fine, but he didn't. We're only talking about twelve or so notes here - but to me they stick out like a sausage in a vegetarian thali.

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, Bellamy is probably introducing his fans to music they would otherwise fight shy of, so all in all it's probably a good thing. I just wish he'd shown a bit more taste or humility.

Edward

[missypiano]

The thing is that I don't dislike Muse - I have all their albums and would dearly love to see them live. What irritates me about Bellamy's "version" isn't that he's changed it per se (I love Gabriela Montero, Jacques Loussier etc.), just that he changed it for no discernible musical or artistic reason. Had he improved it, that would have been fine, but he didn't. We're only talking about twelve or so notes here - but to me they stick out like a sausage in a vegetarian thali.

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, Bellamy is probably introducing his fans to music they would otherwise fight shy of, so all in all it's probably a good thing. I just wish he'd shown a bit more taste or humility.

Edward

I have to agree with you on that one. Just like you I am a big fan of Muse and also have all their albums (not too keen on the first one though so never really listen to that one!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). I just didn't like his interpretation of Chopin's nocturne either. I thought it lacked feelings, was very mechanical and I just didn't enjoy listening to it. I guess it's all a question of taste but it is definitely not a version I'd want to listen to again.

[nickjones8]

Muse - great live, but the Emerson Lake and Palmer of the C21st ... discuss

[Edwardo]

Muse - great live, but the Emerson Lake and Palmer of the C21st ... discuss

Sounds fine to me. ELP were, at their best, the finest band of the second half of the C20th. Or did you expect us to pay lip service to the received opinion that ELP = prog rock = bad; you know, the sort of lame, thought-free tripe purveyed by Tony "Bloke" Parsons and Julie "Queen of the Groucho" Burchill? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[nickjones8]

Muse - great live, but the Emerson Lake and Palmer of the C21st ... discuss

Sounds fine to me. ELP were, at their best, the finest band of the second half of the C20th. Or did you expect us to pay lip service to the received opinion that ELP = prog rock = bad; you know, the sort of lame, thought-free tripe purveyed by Tony "Bloke" Parsons and Julie "Queen of the Groucho" Burchill? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Didn't expect anything at all - just wondered what people thought. Sorry if I trod on your toes.

While I loved ELP at the time they now seem to me a bit bombastic, and they murdered Copland (FFTCM at least - their version of Hoedown is OK). I detect the same in Muse - and possibly in The Mars Volta and other bands also.

Muse are still great live, better than ELP I think, who I did see in their prime. And I have no general gripe against prog rock - esp Gentle Giant, early Yes or Genesis, later Crimson, Jethro Tull, some Zappa, etc.

ELP the best band of the latter half of the C20th? Really?

[Dugazon]

I just didn't like his interpretation of Chopin's nocturne either.

I think this could be the problem - it isn't an interpretation of Chopin's Nocturne. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[missypiano]

I just didn't like his interpretation of Chopin's nocturne either.

I think this could be the problem - it isn't an interpretation of Chopin's Nocturne. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
It is just so close to the way it is normally classically performed though. Maybe If Bellamy had altered the nocturne a bit more, it wouldn't feel like he is playing the nocturne badly (apologies to the people who actually like his...version (? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )).

[Arundodonuts]

Muse are still great live, better than ELP I think, who I did see in their prime. And I have no general gripe against prog rock - esp Gentle Giant, early Yes or Genesis, later Crimson, Jethro Tull, some Zappa, etc.

ELP the best band of the latter half of the C20th? Really?

No of course they weren't. I love 'em though. Saw them twice. But, no. Not a patch on Floyd or Yes (Yes Album and Fragile get lots of airplay in our house) or the great master you name - Frank Zappa (especially the later touring bands - utterly sublime).

As for "classical adaptations" Emerson did it first and I reckon better with Nice.

[nickjones8]

No of course they weren't. I love 'em though. Saw them twice. But, no. Not a patch on Floyd or Yes (Yes Album and Fragile get lots of airplay in our house) or the great master you name - Frank Zappa (especially the later touring bands - utterly sublime).

As for "classical adaptations" Emerson did it first and I reckon better with Nice.

I thought mention of Uncle Meat might spur Roy to action! And I should have mentioned Gong and Soft Machine - I love Gong!