Should There Be A Grade 9?, (and maybe 10 too?) Options

[stevensfo]

Fair enough that you don't need exams to be a professional musician.

Hallelujah! The most sensible part of the whole thread!


The phrase 'Get a life' comes to mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


Steve

PS Perhaps someone can tell us the name of a famous musician/composer who DID take exams to Diploma level.

PPS Apart from Rick Wakeman!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[maggiemay]

Hallelujah! The most sensible part of the whole thread!

The phrase 'Get a life' comes to mind.

Well said !

[mattrattley]

broadly speaking, grades are for 'amateur' musicians, diplomas are for 'professionals'. There really has to be a gap between them. something my chemistry teacher says quite alot when he's teaching us is:

Exams are for amateurs...? But surely making money from music is for professionals...?

I would class somebody who gigs almost nightly and has been on several tours as a professional, even if they hadn't done any diplomae - even if they hadn't done any exams at all, in fact!

However, I would class somebody who has done Grades 1-8 and the Diplomae, yet only really plays at home for personal enjoyment (bar the odd occassional performance at a charity music festival or local school event) as an amateur...

that's not entirely the meaning of what i said.

grades 1-8 are basically a way for students to guage how well they are doing, to provide targets to aim for and to get some experience of playing under pressure to someone. they don't prepare you for how music is in the real world at all. thus they are - generally - for the amateur musician. That is not to say that unless you've taken a diploma, you're not a professional - it's that exams are only useful tools if you are thinking in terms of an amateur student getting better, not as a professional musician.

diplomas on the other hand are more about professional playing, and do give a performer some idea of what real world music is like. its more open structure wouldn't help an amateur musician a great deal to see how well they're doing - but it does give the professional musician an idea of how they are playing.

your hypothetical people above are good examples (don't mind if i theive them for a moment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) - the musician that plays in the real world, gaining experience, would probably be classed as a professional - but grades to them would be useless as the exam situation bears no resemblance to real life performing. the stay-at-home player might be classed as an amateur - but one that has the capacity to be a professional musician if they tried, or wanted to.

in my mind i seperate getting grades as a student, and getting experience as a professional. so - yes, you can be a professional and still be working through the grades - but the grades themselves will only really help amateur musicians and not professionals, and diplomae won't help an amatuer that much either.

and i also agree that exams don't make you a professional musician, or that you need them to progress - diplomas act much like exams do to amateurs - great to see how well you're getting on, and to have another experience of playing, but not necessary. just kinda useful...

[Dulciana]

I think I was the culprit who first used the word "professional" in this thread, but I used the word wrongly. I meant "professional" in an academic way. In a grade exam you get marks for each section, and hopefully they'll add up to a pass at least. A performance diploma is an altogether different ball-game, in that the level of playing has to be of a "professional" standard. This is nothing to do with whether or not you will make money out of music. (I make money playing the organ, but I'm often sight-reading, and would quake at someone suggesting I was playing "professionally" on these occasions!) What I meant by "professional" was playing to a standard that would be approved by critical experts, technically and artistically. This is where the personal pride comes from in attaining a diploma; it is nothing to do with making money, which is a different matter, and irrelevant.

[Violinia]

I can see the logic in the idea, but I still can't help feeling that there IS and SHOULD be a gap between the standard required for grade exams and that required for a diploma. Otherwise, would a diploma be quite such an achievement? I really only felt that I "learnt to play" betwen grade 8 and diploma, but had there been interim options, I might just have strived to pass the exams rather than really learn to play, as I see it, in a manner that could be perceived as professionally.

I don't think the high failure rate at diploma level is indicative of a system that doesn't need looking at..

However, perhaps some teachers should be a bit more honest with their pupils and just not allow them to think of the Diploma as a sort of 'Grade 9'. In the old days only the unusually talented would even think of going on and doing a diploma after Grade 8 whereas now it's beginning to be seen as a sort of inevitable 'next step' which I think is a bit illusory. Failing a diploma can be an absolutely devastating experience so I think realistically more students should be going the music degree route and doing a diploma after that (3 years completely buried in music) if they still want to.

Violinia

[carol*piano]

However, perhaps some teachers should be a bit more honest with their pupils and just not allow them to think of the Diploma as a sort of 'Grade 9'. In the old days only the unusually talented would even think of going on and doing a diploma after Grade 8 whereas now it's beginning to be seen as a sort of inevitable 'next step' which I think is a bit illusory.

Very good point - one of the local singing teacher(who I accompany for)'s pupils who has done her grade 8, has said that perhaps she will just do a diploma before she goes to university... whereas really she is not at the required standard at all - it is just seen as another hoop to jump through and not always taken with the seriousness it deserves I feel. Witness posts in the diploma forum of "My exam is next week, what is the viva voce/how do I do the quick study/my programme is the wrong length etc. etc.

[Manek]

Fair enough that you don't need exams to be a professional musician.

Hallelujah! The most sensible part of the whole thread!


The phrase 'Get a life' comes to mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


Steve

PS Perhaps someone can tell us the name of a famous musician/composer who DID take exams to Diploma level.

PPS Apart from Rick Wakeman!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I guess this is kinda what I was trying to say...

That people (all too often) seem to view exams and/or diplomae as as an end in themselves, rather than a means to an end, which is what they actually are...

[ChevvyChev]

The way I see it music is/should be about passion...If you wake up in the morning and think "I must pass grade 8 or I must pass my diploma" for whatever reason, then I dont think that makes you qualify as a brilliant musician...I think if you wake up in the morning and think "I want to play my (insert own instrument here)" or "I want to learn about how Mozart wrote x/y/z" or you've been in bed with the flu for a week and all you can think is "I want to play it!! I miss playing it!!" you pick up your instrument the first time you are feeling better and well enough to play and think "I want to do this for the rest of my life, there is no better feeling than this" etc, type thought, that is what makes you a true musician!

I'm not sure if that made any sense at all!

For example, my best friend is a few years older than me and in the 2nd year of a science degree, she hasn't had lessons since junior school, but she played in every show band/school concert etc at senior school, where I met her. She is almost certainly a better flute player than me, and a stunning musician...what makes her such a good musician is her desire to play and to learn, to experiment with sound and to enjoy the instrument, to make music and to have fun! That's the makings of a true musician in my opinion, not someone who only plays for the piece of paper framed on the wall...yes they are nice, as a guide to where you are, but you cannot distinguish a true musician from a piece of paper!

Back to my point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

oh yes, the nice thing about the diploma is that it's different from exams, you get more choice on pieces, you have to learn about those pieces, and you have to spend the time working towards it, planning and learning as you go...in that time, i believe you can discover what/how/why you want to play, and the big gap...well if you think about it, you have a chance to expand your musicality, and to learn about yourself as a musician, to gain repetoire but still have a goal to work towards etcetc...it's nice to get the chance to experience being a musician for the love of it rather than "play these three pieces, learn these scales, do this aural test, and sight read this piece"...



I remain firmly in my view that no graded exam/diploma/degree/a-level/etcetc can qualify you as a true musician...it's something form inside, a passion, a want, a need, something you can't explain, a part of you...one you couldn't live without.......that's the bit of you that makes the true musician!



(sorry fo my long winded-slightly boring explanation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ...but i can't think of any other way to put it...I just hope it makes some kind of sense to someone!)

[YetAnotherPianist]

diplomae

diplomata (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ChevvyChev]

diplomae

diplomata (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

teeheehee (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Mini Mozarta]

I think that diploma should be after grade 9. It's like a grade 10 really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Melody Amour]

I am so glad that there is not a grade 9 otherwise I would never learn to play the piano. I have scrapped a pass for G8 and am now learning to play the piano. It will be a long time before I am able to take a diploma but for now I am going to enjoy and have fun with all that I am learning.