Telling students they are good, How do you do this? Options

[violincjj]

Following another thread...

I hardly ever tell kids they are good. I praise them for specific things, particularly when they work things out themselves or apply something they already learned in a new, appropriate situation. But I don't gush about the fact that they play the violin or that they sing or that they just got 139 for Grade X.

(I thought about this recently because I <did> gush to a Gd 2 violinist who got a Pass of 102. I told him that he could do something that 99.9% of people could not do and that he should feel enormously proud of his certificate because he worked so hard for it.)

But I have to admit I cringe if I hear kids telling others that they are 'On Grade X' (especially if they did Grade X-1 last month) and have been know to say 'Yes, but are you making a Grade X sound? With a Grade X bowhold?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Maybe I am just Mean.

[anacrusis]

Focusing what you tell is undoubtedly important, but withholding praise isn't great either: it is not always true that a child will make greater and greater effort to please someone apparently unwilling to be pleased - some will assume the worst and give up trying. Yes, liberal and diffuse praise probably doesn't do much good either, but well-aimed words will boost self-confidence. Thus research would suggest that the blanket, "aren't you clever?" is much less helpful than, "I like the way you have done this bit, or made that, the colours are pretty" or "that was nicely in tune". Mixing that with a bit of how could you do that better, not every time, but some of the time, allows a message to filter through of room for improvement.

I used to cringe when the kids of distant relatives made a biiiig song and dance about how clever they were (they weren't) or how musical (they're okay, but not spectacular), but they grew up in a different culture, where blowing one's trumpet is the thing to do. Here we prize a more modest (sometimes to almost stupid levels) presentation, but sadly a culture of using put-downs for kids wanting a bit of positive reassurance means that there are also many growing up feeling insecure and uncertain of their own merits.

In practice, I guess it means we need to think about what we're wanting to achieve. I want to be able to set my kids out in the world, independently thinking and well-enough liked by those they interact with that they have the best chance of being happy and confident in their own abilities. As a parent that means accepting shortcomings, trying to work with those, and building on the plus sides, be that of character or of achievements. As a pupil, the approach I have valued most has been that which has implied that I am capable, and demonstration of patience with my gremlins: I do need someone to pat my back to let me believe I can probably play okay, and if my teachers hadn't ever told me when I did a job well, I'd not have managed what I have to date.

[owainsutton]

Hmmmm. Interesting topic! Thinking about it, I never simply tell them that they're "good", but focus on specific points, as just about any published advice tends to rightly recommend.

The difference is between those where the specific point is something like "You remembered most of the B flats" or "You played the right rhythms", compared broader comments such as "You're a really reliable and sensitive player in ensembles" or "You respond very expressively to the changes of harmony".

Telling gifted players that they're "good" is probably unnecessary - they're generally well aware of it, or at least that they're very capable in comparison to their peers.

I know what you mean about the "on Grade X" cringe. Far worse when you hear it from (competitive) parents. Perhaps some of it is oneupmanship, but it's also maybe a terminology arising from the emphasis on testing (and on the preparation for it) in schools: "doing Sats this year", or "taking GCSEs" for two or three years. Either way, it's not mean to point out that the grades are only a single measurement of achievement on a specific date, not some continuing curriculum.

[Seer_Green]

I don't think I tell any of my pupils they're 'good'; I might say something sounds good or they've worked hard, but at the end of the day, how does one define 'good'? It seems an entirely comparative term to me. I'm all for praise when it's due, in moderation.

I know one teacher who gives stickers, sweets, chocolates, presents, cakes etc. practically every time their pupils breathe. Of course, it is attractive to the pupils, but to me it does them no favours long term. It leads them (as I see so often in schools these days) into this mentality that there will be a material reward every time they 'achieve'. Of course, the reality of life is very different. Whilst they need to be praised and encouraged, when do they learn that some things are worth doing just for the sake of it?

I give the occasional sticker and I do praise (maybe not as much as I should), but the effects of this are much more realistic. Because they know I don't give out stickers very often, they know that when they do get one, they've really earned it.

Maybe I'm just mean too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[owainsutton]

It leads them (as I see so often in schools these days) into this mentality that there will be a material reward every time they 'achieve'.

I remember reading a study a while ago, with pre-school children, which showed how problematic this is. I can't remember the details, but it was to do with spontaneous drawing for pleasure, as opposed to requested drawing with or without the promise of a reward. Those who were routinely told they would be rewarded at the end of the task were found, later on, to be less inclined to draw for pleasure.

Quite separately, I have once singled out a pupil for a shower of superlative-laden general praise, but this was when saying goodbye due to me moving away, and she did (and still does) stand out as an exceptionally promising young musician (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[accellerando]

My pupils only get a sticker or an 'excellent' against a piece if it was played almost perfectly first time; for beginners, this means that the notes and rhythm were all correct, and for the more advanced, that the piece was performed fluently and with all the appropriate musical detail. In these instances, which do not occur very often, I do gush!

[Roseau]

Kemp's book "The Musical Temperament" has a couple of paragraphs on teachers and praise. I can't now remember the details but it was quite complex and rather paradoxical along the lines that teachers who were most likely to give lots of praise in their role as teachers were the least receptive to praise when they were learning and that those who had found praise gratifying when they were learning were the least likely to praise their own pupils.

It also has a lot on which sorts of pupils need praise - for some it is a vital part of the learning process, others are almost impervious to it. So I suppose the real question ought to be not "how" do you tell your students they're good but "how do you know which students need to be told their good." (And so, in the end, to how well do you know your pupils).

[owainsutton]

Kemp's book "The Musical Temperament" has a couple of paragraphs on teachers and praise. I can't now remember the details but it was quite complex and rather paradoxical along the lines that teachers who were most likely to give lots of praise in their role as teachers were the least receptive to praise when they were learning and that those who had found praise gratifying when they were learning were the least likely to praise their own pupils.

I'd be very interested to know the details of this. If a teacher was very aware of undeserved praise when learning (easily misinterpreted as unreceptive), amd as a result ensures that they always give regular, specific and deserved praise to pupils, it doesn't sound problematic to me!

So I suppose the real question ought to be not "how" do you tell your students they're good but "how do you know which students need to be told their good." (And so, in the end, to how well do you know your pupils).

So true. The boundary between praise and reassurance is a very blurred one.

[notmusimum]

As a parent I just want teachers to be honest. When daughter does well or improves I want them to tell her so. Most of all I want them to give her direction on how to improve, to talk to her about where progress can be made. If she makes steps along the progress path then it's nice to know but it should always be kept in context. I would rather have no praise than false praise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[anacrusis]

does anyone really deserve no praise, ever?

[violincjj]

does anyone really deserve no praise, ever?

No, I don't think so. Although I don't go OTT in praise I do make a point of saying 'Hurray! You're here with your violin AND your music AND your fingers and you are ON TIME!' to some of my most chaotic students on the occasions when it is deserved. And often they are the least accomplished because they don't get organised at home by themselves or their parents to practise so progress is limited.

In Group lessons I get the kids to tell each other one thing that they can see is good, although one time one kid came out with 'You handled all the mistakes pretty well' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[dolce@piano]

On a daily/weekly basis, I only talk about specific things - yes, this was better, yes, that was good, yes (occasionally) that is great and spot-on and, no, that was not right, you can do better . . .

But, occasionally, I've had more of a heart-to-heart chat where I've told a child that they're very good, that they've got a lot of talent, have something whihc very few others have etc. etc.
But this is a 'big-picture' chat which is usually part of a 'you-could-do-so-much-better-if-only-you-pulled-your-finger-out' sort of chat.

[owainsutton]

In Group lessons I get the kids to tell each other one thing that they can see is good, although one time one kid came out with 'You handled all the mistakes pretty well' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

An examiner in the making!

Especially when approaching exams, I like to get them to comment on one another's performanes, asking in advance for "one thing that's really good, and one thing that could be improved". It really gets them thinking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[morceau]

I like to be very honest with pupils. I specifically praise the things they do well, but am blunt about the things which need work. They don't seem to mind at all - I'm giving them the keys to improving their playing. I often ask them what they thought of something they just played and it's surprising how even the littlest will say "too many pauses" "no dynamics" etc. Which makes me realise that they would quickly spot undeserved praise.

If they've worked hard in the lesson I always say "well done" at the end.

If I have nothing good to say, because no practise has happened or they messed about in the lesson, then I say so. I hope they feel that effort on their part will be noticed and that real achievement will be praised.

Like dolce@piano - I have said "you're good" when having a straight talk about a lack of practise with a pupil who could do well.

As usual though, I've picked up a lot of new tips from this thread!

[violincjj]

That's interesting, I am quite forgiving about the odd occasions when not much practise has happened and usually say something about 'Let's get you back into the swing again' because often, it's not their fault they have not had time and I know it's not a good feeling to not progress with manageable stuff.

And I've realised I always say Well Done! at the end of a lesson, as well as often saying thanks for coming - which sounded really affected when I began doing it but one of my son's teachers says it and I liked it!