Would This Be Legal..., ...In your country? Options

[neilthecellist]

As I'm only a parent I can't give you any advice. Just wondered are you the only student dis-satisfied with the Conductor? If you have a body of support then maybe you could find a way round the situation until the end of year. By either leaving on mass (drastic) or getting together to discuss how the pieces are going to be played and doing them that way as best you can ignoring her directions (dangerous).

I think like you, if it was me in your situation I'd want to hit back. I suspect though from what you have said that she's not the type of person to recognise what you are saying so it maybe pointless having it out with her, even though you might feel better afterwards.

All the students in the class are dis-satisifed, but are too... what's the word you guys use in the UK? I describe it as "chicken". They're too afraid of standing up for what's right. When I suggested a petition, no one wanted to sign it. Some parents wanted to, but the kids themselves didn't.

You'd expect a class of students who take a million AP (equivalent to IB) classes would have the courage to stand up for what's right...

[notmusimum]

All the students in the class are dis-satisifed, but are too... what's the word you guys use in the UK? I describe it as "chicken". They're too afraid of standing up for what's right. When I suggested a petition, no one wanted to sign it. Some parents wanted to, but the kids themselves didn't.

You'd expect a class of students who take a million AP (equivalent to IB) classes would have the courage to stand up for what's right...

You would but it doesn't happen. On the other side of the coin teachers often don't listen. My daughter plays several instrument to Grade 5 standard. In the Uk the children are given targets (government initiative), the teacher gives by daughter an assessed target of 4a on her School Report. I asked why the target was so low last year. This year she gives her exactly the same level and wonders why both my child I are upset. Well because the same child has achieved a 4a in French that she's only been studying one lesson a week since September (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) .

I've caused a big row by making the challenge, worst of all it'sa not with me but someone else who wanted to help out, and the Teacher is very upset. None of that was my intention, she now feels under pressure and I'm sure some of the opportunities my daughter once had will disappear. I only wanted her to give my child some extension work rather than leaving her supporting other members of the class without any recognition and basically ignoring it. They all end up with the same assessed level.

To my child it won't make too much difference because she gets lots of support outside of school and the quality of school music is not that high. At the end of the day she has another 2 terms in this year and three terms next year that she needs to be occupied in. The teacher is also risking loosing the schools most experienced player and someone who is willing to participate in musical things at school. I somehow doubt that it will be seen that way though.

A petition is a bit final so in a way I can understand why they won't subscribe to it. What is obvious to the people the behaviour is effecting isn't always clear to the person displaying the behaviour.

I hope you have success with what your trying ot achieve. You might have to think outside the box to achieve it (wish I'd taken my own advice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ).

[neilthecellist]

Your experience is similar to what the students in my class are scared of enduring.



I, however, will consider your experience heavily as far as what plan of action I will personally take.

[notmusimum]

Your experience is similar to what the students in my class are scared of enduring.



I, however, will consider your experience heavily as far as what plan of action I will personally take.

Just don't take my advice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Next move is showdown!!!

I really hope things sort themselves out for you so that they are at least tolerable. Take heart from the fact that there are others who will feel the same even if they are not ready to be counted yet.

[neilthecellist]

Your experience is similar to what the students in my class are scared of enduring.



I, however, will consider your experience heavily as far as what plan of action I will personally take.

Just don't take my advice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Next move is showdown!!!

I really hope things sort themselves out for you so that they are at least tolerable. Take heart from the fact that there are others who will feel the same even if they are not ready to be counted yet.

What bothers me the most is that, a person like the concertmaster in my class, who's been concertmaster for several years, not just in school orchestras but in a youth orchestra and such, doesn't have the tenacity to take charge.

I, a cellist, have been principal cellist for many years, and I constantly find that I have to forcefully step out of my place JUST so I can make a point to the teacher about something that it is critically or fundamentally wrong.

It turns out that my teacher has FINALLY granted a one-on-one conference with her this Thursday so I can talk about the 200+ changes that I'd like to make to the piece before our concert on January 17th.

[neilthecellist]

Well, my conference with the music teacher didn't go well at all.

In fact, when I showed up, she said that she had to go home ASAP for family reasons.

I came back 15 minutes later and saw her talking to two college students who came to visit. -___-

-------

I've been removed from the orchestra for the rest of the semester, (I was going to drop the class next semester anyway without penalty on my college applications, but I suppose that changes now since my teacher is doing that for me BEFORE the semester ends)

And now I'm not allowed to communicate whatsoever with the music teacher, because apparently I've been cued in for harassment. If writing a 7 page Dalcroze analysis on Introduction and Allegro for String Quartet and Orchestra (Elgar) and annotating 67 pages of my copy of the score for the piece, while her score is blank (with the exception of the places that I circled for her on occasions that she was absent), then I'm wondering what the heck she was doing in college. Did she even LEARN how to conduct?

Anyway, apparently, another student complained about my teacher. There is a program in California (it might be for the whole country but I'm not sure) called All-State Honors Orchestra, where students interested in applying file an application to their school's music teacher. That teacher has to mail the application themselves.

Apparently, W "forgot" to mail it in. That student's parents got furious (since it hinders the student's admission into music school) and complained to the same principal that I complained to, and now W has an administrative warning and faces "severe disciplinary action" if it ever happens again.

Oh, and for the solo cello replacement for Introduction and Allegro for the performance yesterday, W hired a professional cellist and paid them. Can you imagine? Someone who is over 30 performing with students who are all under 18? I don't mind paying for talent if I'm in an orchestra where there are paying contracts and stuff, but we're talking about an orchestra within a public school system in the United States of America here. Hello! Anyone sense illegality going on... AGAIN?

[organ_dummy]

I sympathize with your situation. Unfortunately, teachers who are incapable of teaching tend to be rather insecure as well. They usually dislike students making suggestions or criticism.

[chopin-bag]

Instead of looking at this problem (and I agree, it is a very frustrating one!), try and take a different approach. Why not grab your conductor after a rehearsal and ask if she's got time for a chat. Explain your own ambitions of becoming a conductor and ask her if she would be willing to discuss a few things with you. With this approach, she will be fairly flattered and eager to hear what you have to say. Don't accuse her of being a talentless conductor- that won't get you anywhere. Instead, ask her to explain to you how she would go about conducting pp-cresc.subito ppp or whatever and see what comes up in the ensuing discussion. Ultimately, you want a competent conductor, but imagine how great you'll feel if you personally are the one to start getting some improvements out of her!

[elmo]

Your teacher might be bad but it looks like a "like it or lump it situation". Dont get me wrong, the teachers at our school were very good at encouraging people to play (sorry, should that be, study?) in orchestras and bands, and were good musicians, merely because of the quality of the pupil's partcipating we never strayed far from very basic pieces.

Your interpretation of a piece might be different from your conductor's but changing the tempo will just annoy them. I too study conducting but at university and we frequently have student conductors, but I would never dream of changing the speed because I didn't agree with it, it's their interpretation. It also makes it hard work trying to work out what the piece is actually playing at tempo wise, and frankly, join a string quartet if you're not going to follow your conductor.

Your situation might be frustrating, and your teacher might be poor, but have you ever thought that your (perhaps) superior attitude towards her is just getting her back up and doing more things to annoy you? Teachers do that, it's a shock and awe tactic to make you see sense.

[neilthecellist]

Your situation might be frustrating, and your teacher might be poor, but have you ever thought that your (perhaps) superior attitude towards her is just getting her back up and doing more things to annoy you? Teachers do that, it's a shock and awe tactic to make you see sense.

Me? See sense?

This teacher doesn't even make a difference between molto rit and a poco rit

Or a stringendo from a largamente
Or even accept the fact that there are websites where you can clear up the typos in your score

My supposed "tempo changes" were either written in the score and were ignored by the teacher, AND/OR I went on a website and found the list of errors and proceeded to make the corrections and sent a list of them to my teacher.... who ignored it again.

Please, don't tell me that a conductor wants to make me see sense. In any case, conductor training has taught me one thing: Be prepared.

Clearly, that teacher hasn't.

Her scores are always blank, no circling, no annotations, nothing, on any page. Seriously, who does she think she is, Dimitri Mitropoulos? PLEASE. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

[Rosemary7391]

You seem to be harkng on about writing on scores.... Not everyone likes scores written all over. I don't - and I can remember what needs doing from one day to the next. Perhaps, as a new conductor she is unsure of the capabilities of either the orchestra or herself, and is therefore taking it gently? It does seem harsh, but be nice to her - you might get something back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[loops]

You seem to be harkng on about writing on scores.... Not everyone likes scores written all over. I don't - and I can remember what needs doing from one day to the next.

I think neil's point is that she doesn't write on them because she desn't know enough about anything TO write on them.

neil: hopefully this doesn't sound arrogant, but I've several times had the problem of teachers who knew less than me about something, because I was passionate about something to read deeply and they were not, also teachers who marked stuff wrong when it was right, and so on. My advice is to let it rest. There is literally NOTHING you can do in the short term. The fact you have been accused of harassment shows that this person really IS incompetent, because if she wasn't she would have been able to explain to you what she was doing, unless of course you were shouting at her. Yes you can give your essay and your list of 200+ suggestions to the headteacher in an attempt to show that you are not harassing a teacher, merely being passionate about it, but he/she is bound to support that teacher - at least in front of you.
And you would want to be supported that way if the situation were reversed.

In my experience some teachers can seem frightened of students who know more than they do - it takes a lot of self-confidence to admit to a teenager that the teenager knows more than themselves. The only real option that doesn't waste your time is to back off. In any event, you are much better off using your considerable energy and talent on something more immediately productive.

[neilthecellist]

You seem to be harkng on about writing on scores.... Not everyone likes scores written all over. I don't - and I can remember what needs doing from one day to the next.

I think neil's point is that she doesn't write on them because she desn't know enough about anything TO write on them.

Precisely.

neil: hopefully this doesn't sound arrogant, but I've several times had the problem of teachers who knew less than me about something, because I was passionate about something to read deeply and they were not, also teachers who marked stuff wrong when it was right, and so on. My advice is to let it rest. There is literally NOTHING you can do in the short term. The fact you have been accused of harassment shows that this person really IS incompetent, because if she wasn't she would have been able to explain to you what she was doing, unless of course you were shouting at her. Yes you can give your essay and your list of 200+ suggestions to the headteacher in an attempt to show that you are not harassing a teacher, merely being passionate about it, but he/she is bound to support that teacher - at least in front of you.
And you would want to be supported that way if the situation were reversed.

In my experience some teachers can seem frightened of students who know more than they do - it takes a lot of self-confidence to admit to a teenager that the teenager knows more than themselves. The only real option that doesn't waste your time is to back off. In any event, you are much better off using your considerable energy and talent on something more immediately productive.

I'll think about it, but don't you think it'd be wrong to let a wrong pass... right in front of your eyes? We're not talking about a soldier who's been mortally wounded and has only minutes to live, we're talking about a problem that someone can actually solve! Why let it pass?

[loops]

I'll think about it, but don't you think it'd be wrong to let a wrong pass... right in front of your eyes? We're not talking about a soldier who's been mortally wounded and has only minutes to live, we're talking about a problem that someone can actually solve! Why let it pass?

well: Often it's enough to make your point.
It's amazing how people dig in their heels over the current battle (it's too hard to be wrong) but the very next time a similar situation arises they do it your way.......as though it was their idea all along.
(Provided you articulated why something is right in a clear and non-finger-pointing way).
Try it and see

[Devil_Fiddler]

I'll think about it, but don't you think it'd be wrong to let a wrong pass... right in front of your eyes? We're not talking about a soldier who's been mortally wounded and has only minutes to live, we're talking about a problem that someone can actually solve! Why let it pass?

In an ideal world, yes, you should be able to solve this, but I think that, from what you have said, that loops is right and there isn't much you can do.

For the past year and a bit, since I started my GCSE, I've had a music teacher who I quite quickly realised knew less about some areas of music than me.
At first this frustrated me no end, and I would come out of lessons really angry.
I knew how hard it would be to try and get a new teacher, so I pursued other routes to try and show her where she was wrong, but to no effect.
In the end I've just had to put up with her, help out the people in my class that I feel will benifit from knowing where she is wrong and getting help from other places outside of class.

I know how frustrating the situation must seem and how easily you feel it could be fixed, but I think the best thing to do in this situation would be just to step back and put up with it. People within the school obviously now know your feelings, but I don't think there's much else you can do.