Just Wondering..., I'm a bit confused! Options

[ELLAonthepiano]

2 things I want to know about Jazz exams...

The first is: are the grades meant to be the same as the grades for the normal exams? I've got my grade five saxophone but my teacher has put me onto grade 3 jazz saxophone... I don't get it.

The other thing is: If you played exactly the same improvisation in your exam as the one on the cd, would you be penalised for it? I find improvisation really easy, but my friend, who doesn't, has bought the cd and is learning the improvisations that have been recorded. Would this be a problem?

Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TSax]

2 things I want to know about Jazz exams...

The first is: are the grades meant to be the same as the grades for the normal exams? I've got my grade five saxophone but my teacher has put me onto grade 3 jazz saxophone... I don't get it.

The grades are supposed to be at the same level for jazz and classical - but they're testing different disciplines. Grade 5 violin is supposed to be the same as grade 5 saxophone, but if you just started playing violin you wouldn't expect to enter at grade 5 because you had grade 5 sax. Admittedly there's more similarity between jazz and classical saxophone exams than there is between violin and sax exams, but you get the idea.

The other thing is: If you playged exactly the same improvisation in your exam as the one on the cd, would you be penalised for it? I find improvisation really easy, but my friend, who doesn't, has bought the cd and is learning the improvisations that have been recorded. Would this be a problem?

Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If she played exactly the same improvisation as on the CD then she wouldn't be improvising, so yes, she would be penalised, I imagine quite heavily, for it. Having said that copying the improvisation from the CD is a really good thing to do in terms of training your ears and getting the right harmonic and stylistic feel. Using small snatches of the recorded improvisation, or a rhythmic idea as a basis for her own improvisation would be appropriate.

[JohnS]

If you played exactly the same improvisation in your exam as the one on the cd, would you be penalised for it? I find improvisation really easy, but my friend, who doesn't, has bought the cd and is learning the improvisations that have been recorded. Would this be a problem?

As TSax says, this is a big no no. The improvisation part of a jazz exam is the place for a candidate (perhaps with the help of a teacher) to shine creatively. What can the candidate put in to the piece that the examiner has never heard before? Can you play something unexpected yet still within the flow of the music?

Copying someone is a useful art that a musician needs to practise. It isn't being tested in this part of the AB jazz exams though and shouldn't be used.

[notmusimum]

My daughter started at G3 on Jazz Flute already having G5 Classical. The head isn't as technically difficult but the improvisation is what the examiner is testing. Grade 3 was a good starting point particularly as she more or less had to go alone. She's since done G5 Jazz Flute and G4 on Jazz Sax. With experience it does get easier.

If your friend can't cope with improvising maybe she should look at something like Jazz Zone James Rae or a book of Jazz riffs and start at a lower level.

[ELLAonthepiano]

The grades are supposed to be at the same level for jazz and classical - but they're testing different disciplines. Grade 5 violin is supposed to be the same as grade 5 saxophone, but if you just started playing violin you wouldn't expect to enter at grade 5 because you had grade 5 sax. Admittedly there's more similarity between jazz and classical saxophone exams than there is between violin and sax exams, but you get the idea.

No, I mean is grade five jazz sax the same as grade five classical sax? And grade four jazz flute the same as grade four classical flute etc...

[TSax]

The grades are supposed to be at the same level for jazz and classical - but they're testing different disciplines. Grade 5 violin is supposed to be the same as grade 5 saxophone, but if you just started playing violin you wouldn't expect to enter at grade 5 because you had grade 5 sax. Admittedly there's more similarity between jazz and classical saxophone exams than there is between violin and sax exams, but you get the idea.

No, I mean is grade five jazz sax the same as grade five classical sax? And grade four jazz flute the same as grade four classical flute etc...

They're not the same no, one is jazz and the other is classical. They're the same level though.

[Maizie]

If you want to do a G6 classical practical, you need G5 in theory, practical musicianship or any JAZZ subject. That tells me that G5 jazz has something different in it to G5 classical. So in some way it must be testing those other skills which are used in PM or theory, but are outside the classical syllabus. So it's definitely something different.

Is G5 sax is the same as G5 jazz sax? As TSax says, they are the same level, but they are different (albeit complementary) subjects. Is A-level physics the same as A-level maths? No, but they are related. Knowing one will help you with the other. But if you had A-level maths and wanted to do some physics (which you had never previously studied), you might start with GCSE physics rather than jumping straight in to A-level. It's a bit like that. G5 classical gives you a headstart with jazz, because of the instrument familiarity, but you won't necessarily be ready to jump straight in at the exact same level, because it is a different set of skills. It just looks very similar (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[andante_in_c]

I recently completed the ABRSM introductory course in jazz teaching. All the participants were experienced and practising instrumental teachers from the classical tradition. We ended the four day course by all taking Grade 1 Jazz in our instrument.

The syllabus for flute has two things in common with the classical syllabus: the range of notes expected for the grade and the basic structure of three pieces, scales, quick study/sight reading and aural. There are a few overlaps between the syllabuses with the scales required and some of the aural tests. However, there the similarity ends. The ABRSM Jazz Flute syllabus requires very different skills from the classical syllabus, and is designed so that candidates learn to play jazz rather than jazzy pieces.

In my opinion it is well worth treating jazz as an entirely different subject from classical, and doing it thoroughly and properly from the beginning with a teacher who knows what he or she is doing.

I have a performance diploma in classical flute and a distinction at Grade 1 jazz flute, and I am equally proud of both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[notmusimum]

The grades are supposed to be at the same level for jazz and classical - but they're testing different disciplines. Grade 5 violin is supposed to be the same as grade 5 saxophone, but if you just started playing violin you wouldn't expect to enter at grade 5 because you had grade 5 sax. Admittedly there's more similarity between jazz and classical saxophone exams than there is between violin and sax exams, but you get the idea.

No, I mean is grade five jazz sax the same as grade five classical sax? And grade four jazz flute the same as grade four classical flute etc...

I suspect we are all assuming you are talking about AB Jazz and people who know more than I have answered your question. Trinity is a little different as it's more about playing pieces in a Jazz style than improvising and LCM is a bit of both. My daughter likes the format of the AB syllabus as it is about improvising.

[ELLAonthepiano]

ok. that makes slightly more sense. thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Violinia]

I recently completed the ABRSM introductory course in jazz teaching. All the participants were experienced and practising instrumental teachers from the classical tradition. We ended the four day course by all taking Grade 1 Jazz in our instrument.

The syllabus for flute has two things in common with the classical syllabus: the range of notes expected for the grade and the basic structure of three pieces, scales, quick study/sight reading and aural. There are a few overlaps between the syllabuses with the scales required and some of the aural tests. However, there the similarity ends. The ABRSM Jazz Flute syllabus requires very different skills from the classical syllabus, and is designed so that candidates learn to play jazz rather than jazzy pieces.

In my opinion it is well worth treating jazz as an entirely different subject from classical, and doing it thoroughly and properly from the beginning with a teacher who knows what he or she is doing.

I have a performance diploma in classical flute and a distinction at Grade 1 jazz flute, and I am equally proud of both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

While I think it's great that you did the four-day course and that it exists at all, I have to admit to finding it a bit weird that non jazz performers whose only training in jazz is a four-day course are going out there and teaching jazz.

Can you imagine a jazz performer and teacher taking a four day course in teaching classical music, passing Grade 1 with distinction and then going out and teaching the classical syllabus? If not, and if you consider it fine to teach jazz after just a four day course, then you must have the view that jazz is a much less serious tradition (therefore much easier to teach) than classical music. Which isn't the case, hence my disquiet at the idea of non-performers teaching the jazz syllabus.

I guess the problem is that there aren't enough jazz performers out there available to teach the jazz syllabus, but that doesn't make it OK. I'm not suggesting you aren't teaching jazz to the best of your ability, or that your distinction at Grade 1 jazz wasn't hard-earned or well-deserved - I'm sure it's both. But is it really enough?

[ELLAonthepiano]

While I think it's great that you did the four-day course and that it exists at all, I have to admit to finding it a bit weird that non jazz performers whose only training in jazz is a four-day course are going out there and teaching jazz.

Can you imagine a jazz performer and teacher taking a four day course in teaching classical music, passing Grade 1 with distinction and then going out and teaching the classical syllabus? If not, and if you consider it fine to teach jazz after just a four day course, then you must have the view that jazz is a much less serious tradition (therefore much easier to teach) than classical music. Which isn't the case, hence my disquiet at the idea of non-performers teaching the jazz syllabus.

I guess the problem is that there aren't enough jazz performers out there available to teach the jazz syllabus, but that doesn't make it OK. I'm not suggesting you aren't teaching jazz to the best of your ability, or that your distinction at Grade 1 jazz wasn't hard-earned or well-deserved - I'm sure it's both. But is it really enough?

I agree.

[andante_in_c]

While I think it's great that you did the four-day course and that it exists at all, I have to admit to finding it a bit weird that non jazz performers whose only training in jazz is a four-day course are going out there and teaching jazz.

Can you imagine a jazz performer and teacher taking a four day course in teaching classical music, passing Grade 1 with distinction and then going out and teaching the classical syllabus? If not, and if you consider it fine to teach jazz after just a four day course, then you must have the view that jazz is a much less serious tradition (therefore much easier to teach) than classical music. Which isn't the case, hence my disquiet at the idea of non-performers teaching the jazz syllabus.

I guess the problem is that there aren't enough jazz performers out there available to teach the jazz syllabus, but that doesn't make it OK. I'm not suggesting you aren't teaching jazz to the best of your ability, or that your distinction at Grade 1 jazz wasn't hard-earned or well-deserved - I'm sure it's both. But is it really enough?

Firstly, you have made the assumption that I am actually teaching jazz. I am not. I am learning a new discipline through the best means available to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

The course equips us with more knowledge than is actually needed for a Grade 1 so that we have the fundamentals in place to begin exploring improvisation and jazz playing with our pupils if we want to. It doesn't give me the licence to call myself a jazz teacher.

It has given us a new set of tools to work with, suggestions for books/CDs to use (like the Jamey Aebersold series) and new ideas to invigorate our teaching.

It has helped me feel I have a basic knowledge of jazz terminology, and very basic understanding of the history of jazz, and a means of getting started.

Too many of us are put off exploring jazz because we think we will be dismissed as classical 'dabblers'. The AB course makes it a tiny bit more accessible to those of us who have little knowledge of jazz. I was delighted in the skill, patience and understanding of the course tutors, who were both teachers of jazz at the very highest level. I was delighted to be given some instruction into how to find my way into this exciting and for me, new discipline.

I am looking forward to taking the intermediate course when I can. That will enable me to take a Grade 2 or 3 at the end of it.

My point in posting the above was in no way to lay a claim to anything other than a Grade 1, but to point out, in my opinion, that Grade 1 is the place to start for anyone who has no previous experience or knowledge of jazz. I am sorry if it gave any other impression.

[Violinia]

I recently completed the ABRSM introductory course in jazz teaching. All the participants were experienced and practising instrumental teachers from the classical tradition.

Firstly, you have made the assumption that I am actually teaching jazz. I am not. I am learning a new discipline through the best means available to me.

I made the assumption because you said you completed the ABRSM introductory course in jazz teaching. This made me assume you were interested in teaching jazz. If you had said you completed the introductory course in jazz performance I would have assumed you were interested in becoming a jazz performer.

I'm sorry if I offended you - what I'm questioning is the whole idea of classical teachers teaching jazz without going through the whole process of becoming accomplished working jazz musicians in their own right before contemplating becoming teachers of jazz. I'm not blaming you at all - you're just taking up the AB's offer of interesting jazz courses.

OK, a question - are you interested in teaching jazz and if so, when would you contemplate beginning to teach it? After the intermediate course, after the advanced course? Would you consider it at all important to go out and work as a jazz musician before starting to teach jazz? Or not? I'm genuinely interested to know what you think.

Or are you just investigating jazz without any thought of teaching it in the near future? You can hardly blame me for thinking you might be intending to teach jazz when you attended a course called 'Introductory Course in Jazz Teaching', can you?

Again, it's not you personally I'm querying - I'm querying the whole idea that anyone should be able to set themselves up as a jazz teacher when they're not a working jazz musician themselves!

[andante_in_c]

I recently completed the ABRSM introductory course in jazz teaching. All the participants were experienced and practising instrumental teachers from the classical tradition.

It is billed as an introductory course. Not a course that qualifies participants fully.

If you have a gripe with the course and its content, I suggest you take it up with the Associated Board and the tutors, not with those of us who have taken the course.