Alarm Bells Ringing About An Odd Pupil Advice Please. Options

[adagiok5]

I am all for helping people with mental health problems, but your own safety and security must come first. At least if he 'loses it' on the phone, you can just replace the receiver - not so easy to deal with alone in your home.

It's extremely difficult knowing how to handle it ... If he does "lose it" on the phone, there's the risk that cutting him off before he's got it all off his chest might enrage him even more and leave him with a festering resentment. If he "loses it", then as long as he's at a safe distance at the end of the phone, it might be better to let him have his rant, then try to not antagonise him any further, and try and part on good terms - without letting him think that there's the remotest possibility that you will ever see him again. I'm mindful of another risk that if he thinks you are understanding about what he chooses to tell you about his problems (bearing in mind that he does not appear to have been entirely straight about his piano background), then he might "latch on" to you and it would become even more difficult to disentangle yourself at a later stage. It's one thing being sympathetic, it's another matter entirely to try to take on the difficulties of helping him - if he really is mentally unstable, then that's a matter which only people with training (and the support/presence of colleagues) should deal with, and the last thing you want is to put yourself at risk.

If/when you do tell him that you're not continuing, it also might be better not to "blame" it on his behaviour, for a number of reasons... It might make him angry again, he might not accept that his behaviour was that bad, he might say "it won't happen again" .... and yes he might be suffering bereavement or some other serious misfortune in his life, but most people suffering very tragic circumstances do not behave like this gentleman. The fact is that in any event, you can't trust what he tells you because he has not even been straight about his piano background.

adagiok5, there is a risk that he might lose it on the phone, so I would have somebody there when you make the call, just in case it shakes you up a bit. And obviously make sure your family/friends in real life know about the situation.

I don't want to be alarmist, and so I couldn't decide whether to mention this, but I remember a case in our local paper a few years ago where a teenage boy had "lost it" with his music teacher and she was badly injured. Obviously it's a very rare occurrence, but to play down the possibility of something happening when signs of anger/frustration have so clearly been expressed, and particularly coupled with the mystery over his piano background ... please don't take the risk adagiok5. Take care x

then he might "latch on" to you and it would become even more difficult to disentangle yourself at a later stage

Yes I know what you mean about that from a comment I made in his second lesson all I said was that I was trying to find out where he was at with the piano. His reply was perhaps you could find out where I am at in other areas. Thank you skylark you really do seem to have understood the situation very well. Adagio

[Melody Amour]

I also agree with Skylark about probably not mentioning his behaviour and enraging him further. I am sorry if I am being scary but if he is the sort of person that will latch on, he already knows where you live. I know it is up to you but one of my thoughts is, "If in doubt, leave it out".

[adagiok5]

I also agree with Skylark about probably not mentioning his behaviour and enraging him further. I am sorry if I am being scary but if he is the sort of person that will latch on, he already knows where you live. I know it is up to you but one of my thoughts is, "If in doubt, leave it out".

Agreed. I will not mention his behaviour to him as I am well aware that I do not know what I am dealing with. This is definitely not a rational person. As it is I never get personally involved with my students always keep my distance and never disscuss anything about myself. Thats the way I like it and it has always worked so far. This situation makes you realise have vunerable and isloated we are as a profession thank goodness for this website.

[Robodoc]

I have an . . . aquaintance, who is a professor of surgery. He is known for his tantrums. He throws the sort of strop you describe here quite regularly:

A few years ago he was having one of his more extreme temper tantrums while scrubbing up for an operation. When he turned round he found his path to the operating theatre blocked by the theatre sister, legs planted & arms folded. She took a deep breath and told him; "you're not going in there until you've thrown all the toys out of you pram!" For about 5 seconds he looked as though he'd been shot. Then he laughed, said "fair enough" and for the rest of their time working together there was nothing but respect in his attitude to her.

It has been suggested that your pupil may just be an extreme alpha male, used to high achievement and success. Perhaps this sort of humourous approach (i.e. "when you've finished throwing the toys out of your pram, please sit down and let's get on with it properly") might be the way to point out that his behaviour is both innapropriate and childish, and that you are not prepared to accept it?

Then there's that add where the woman throws herself to the floor screaming and kicking in a supermarket - same sort of idea.

Good luck!!

[jacobvaneyck]

adagiok5, my view comes from a past where I was on the receiving end of violent temper outbursts from my piano teacher.

Violence, whether verbal or physical, is just plain not on in the context of a music lesson. No matter the reasons for it.
Anyone who shows violence in that context should not have the opportunity to do so again, and that is what you must tell your pupil.
Whether you do that by phone or in person is up to you, but I would very strongly advise you that if you do so in person, you have someone else with you at the time.

And do not see this person on his own again ever. Your safety is your first concern.

I think you're being a little harsh on this pupil, Katyjay. No-one behaves like this without good reason, and while of course it can be disturbing to whoever is on the receiving end, is it not best to find out why it is happening, and if it can be remedied? Too many people are dismissed for erratic behaviour/intelligence etc., when they can't help it. I have worked with autistic/similar people in the past and actually found music itself can be helpful for many traits shown. There is a clear difference between an abusive person and someone with serious problems, and the latter sounds more like the scenario here.

Having another adult around still sounds the best advice.

[skylark]

I have an . . . aquaintance, who is a professor of surgery. He is known for his tantrums. He throws the sort of strop you describe here quite regularly:

A few years ago he was having one of his more extreme temper tantrums while scrubbing up for an operation. When he turned round he found his path to the operating theatre blocked by the theatre sister, legs planted & arms folded. She took a deep breath and told him; "you're not going in there until you've thrown all the toys out of you pram!" For about 5 seconds he looked as though he'd been shot. Then he laughed, said "fair enough" and for the rest of their time working together there was nothing but respect in his attitude to her.

It has been suggested that your pupil may just be an extreme alpha male, used to high achievement and success. Perhaps this sort of humourous approach (i.e. "when you've finished throwing the toys out of your pram, please sit down and let's get on with it properly") might be the way to point out that his behaviour is both innapropriate and childish, and that you are not prepared to accept it?

Then there's that add where the woman throws herself to the floor screaming and kicking in a supermarket - same sort of idea.

Good luck!!

I would agree that this approach can work sometimes, but it wouldn't seem wise for adagiok5 to use it here because the circumstances are very different. The theatre sister knew the surgeon as a colleague and knew his bark was worse than his bite; also she was in a public building with other people nearby whom she could have called upon if necessary. For adagiok5 to try this tactic with a person she doesn't know, in her own home, seems very unwise ....

[Robodoc]

For adagiok5 to try this tactic with a person she doesn't know, in her own home, seems very unwise ....

Up to a point, I agree: What I was getting at is that she needs to let him know in no uncertain terms that this sort of behaviour is simply unacceptable, will not be accepted and if continued will lead to the immediate and irrevocable discontinuation of the professional relationship (i.e. he will be asked to leave and not come back). Delivering this message with humour seems like a better option than outright confrontation, that's all.

[ad_libitum]

I guess it depends on how much Adagio feels she can put up with.

If it were me, I wouldn't even be considering strategies to deal with this person, as they wouldn't be setting foot in my house again...but that's just me!

It may seem harsh but if someone alarmed me that much, I wouldn't have the time, nor the inclination to find out why. I'd just want rid - and quickly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Of course I'm understanding of different pupils' needs, but there is a cut-off point, and I'm not a social worker....

[AnnC]

I guess it depends on how much Adagio feels she can put up with.

If it were me, I wouldn't even be considering strategies to deal with this person, as they wouldn't be setting foot in my house again...but that's just me!

It may seem harsh but if someone alarmed me that much, I wouldn't have the time, nor the inclination to find out why. I'd just want rid - and quickly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Of course I'm understanding of different pupils' needs, but there is a cut-off point, and I'm not a social worker....

I agree entirely. Frankly I'd just be too scared to let him in the house again.
I teach a man with Asbergers, but I didn't know he had it for over 5 years. He's extremely intelligent and very shy. He's certainly never got angry.
Be careful Adagio.

[sarah-flute]

Of course I'm understanding of different pupils' needs, but there is a cut-off point, and I'm not a social worker....

Yes, well put.

It's entirely possible this man has problems and may need help, but a piano teacher can't be expected to automatically be a counselor too. A teacher may choose to try and help but it isn't actually her job, and some may end up taking that role on, she is under no obligation to take on that role unless she choses to.

If someone came into my home, and I found out quite plainly that they hadn't been straight with me about one thing, and then threw a complete wobbly in my living room, I'd be more than a little concerned and probably badly frightened. It's all very well saying "he can't help it", but we don't know that for certain either way, and it would be completely understandable if adagio should feel she would rather not teach him under such circumstances. Whatever reason there may be behind these circumstances, anything from an autistic spectrum disorder to mental illness to just being a grumpy old man, shouldn't be what makes adagio's decision.

Personally... I think I'd give such a person a chance to explain/apologise, either by phone or in person with someone nearby "just in case"; if I got an apology and a reasonable explanation then I'd cautiously consider seeing what happened, if I still thought they were not being straight with me I'd let them find another teacher. You don't need to be spending lesson time wondering if you're going to witness another outburst or whether the outburst is going to end up aimed at you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[skylark]

adagiok5, there is a risk that he might lose it on the phone, so I would have somebody there when you make the call, just in case it shakes you up a bit.

In fact if he does lose it, it might be a good idea to hand the phone to whoever is with you so that they can listen to his rant instead - because they are detached, it would not affect them in the same way. If it is a man you can hand the phone to, so much the better (sorry to offend anybody who thinks that sounds sexist), partly to make you appear less vulnerable and partly to show him that you are not an appropriate person for him to latch on to.


Adagio, although it's best to take precautions on the basis that it's better to be safe than sorry, the likelihood is that this will all blow over and he will disappear out of your life again. Hope so anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


PS I sent you a PM yesterday about something else that I'd remembered that had been useful but it doesn't look to have been read yet - did you receive it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Minstrel]

What an awkward situation, Adagio5.

I would suggest that if you're feeling uncomfortable then you should trust your intuition. You do not have to keep teaching anyone at any stage unless you think you can really help them and it will be a mutually beneficial relationship. My instinct is to say that if you already feel uncomfortable then probably this pupil is not for you - after all, do you want to be worrying about his next lesson all week, every week?

If you do decide to discontinue lessons I suggest it's probably best done tactfully. I know that real and dangerous weirdos are VERY few and far between (which is why we DO hear about them when they crop up) and I'm certainly not in any position to guess exactly where this guy is coming from. My suggestion would be simply to say something along the lines of the fact that he's clearly a lot more advanced than you understood originally and now think that you're not going to be able to help him as much as you first thought (implying, perhaps, that your expertise is rather more with intermediate school pupils). That way, if he is simply a high achiever you will not offend him and also, just in case there are more serious problems, you don't do anything that might agravate him further. I would also suggest that he contacts a further education college or music college (I'm sorry, I don't know if this is possible for you geographically) or otherwise point him towards somewhere where he could have lessons with someone else where there will always be another person on the premises.

[hazel]

You mention "before retirement". Could it be that your student has early Alzheimer's? He could have forgotten that he ever learned piano. Also, I've heard that sudden rages do occur in the early stages of Alzheimer's - don't know if this is true, though.

What a nightmare for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Alzheimer's was my first thought when reading your original post - this is exactly how my Dad behaved when his Alzheimer's started, and was what prompted my Mum to get him diagnosed (she had brushed off his "forgetfulness" for a couple of years with jokes, but this was what made it a reality).

He signed up for some beginner painting classes, claiming he had no formal painting training, when in reality he had spent 3 years at art college and then worked as a sign writer. He threw temper tantrums in the painting classes, and also used to make very tactless comments about other people's efforts (they were all genuine beginnners, doing it for fun) and about the teacher's abilities. He would fly into a rage if his painting wasn't "perfect" and tear it up - sounds very similar to your pupil.

Do any of your piano teacher colleagues have more appropriate surroundings in which to teach him i.e. where there are lots of other people around? If so perhaps you could ask if they would be prepared to take him on?

Does he live alone? If so could you try and engineer a visit to his house (perhaps to drop off some music) and establish from whoever he lives with whether his behaviour is concerning them too? This is what happened with my Dad - the painting teacher had a quiet word with my Mum when she came to pick him up, and Mum was quite relieved that someone else had mentioned it / noticed it. Once he was diagnosed, many other people then said, well we had noticed that..... or well we had suspected...... - as she said, why on earth didn't someone say something sooner. But the one person who wouldn't have received it well was Dad himself - he was completely in denial about it.

Funny thing is, my Mum signed on at the classes too so that she could stay with him, and she still goes now 8 years later (although Dad stopped soon after and just sits and watches) - she turned out to be quite a good painter!!

[adagiok5]

What an awkward situation, Adagio5.

I would suggest that if you're feeling uncomfortable then you should trust your intuition. You do not have to keep teaching anyone at any stage unless you think you can really help them and it will be a mutually beneficial relationship. My instinct is to say that if you already feel uncomfortable then probably this pupil is not for you - after all, do you want to be worrying about his next lesson all week, every week?

If you do decide to discontinue lessons I suggest it's probably best done tactfully. I know that real and dangerous weirdos are VERY few and far between (which is why we DO hear about them when they crop up) and I'm certainly not in any position to guess exactly where this guy is coming from. My suggestion would be simply to say something along the lines of the fact that he's clearly a lot more advanced than you understood originally and now think that you're not going to be able to help him as much as you first thought (implying, perhaps, that your expertise is rather more with intermediate school pupils). That way, if he is simply a high achiever you will not offend him and also, just in case there are more serious problems, you don't do anything that might agravate him further. I would also suggest that he contacts a further education college or music college (I'm sorry, I don't know if this is possible for you geographically) or otherwise point him towards somewhere where he could have lessons with someone else where there will always be another person on the premises.

Thank you for your response Minstrel your quote-:

My suggestion would be simply to say something along the lines of the fact that he's clearly a lot more advanced than you understood originally and now think that you're not going to be able to help him as much as you first thought (implying, perhaps, that your expertise is rather more with intermediate school pupils). That way, if he is simply a high achiever you will not offend him and also, just in case there are more serious problems, you don't do anything that might agravate him further.

This is exactly the response I was going to give him. It is good to have the input of others on this.

[SueHM]

You mention "before retirement". Could it be that your student has early Alzheimer's? He could have forgotten that he ever learned piano. Also, I've heard that sudden rages do occur in the early stages of Alzheimer's - don't know if this is true, though.

What a nightmare for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Alzheimer's was my first thought when reading your original post - this is exactly how my Dad behaved when his Alzheimer's started, and was what prompted my Mum to get him diagnosed (she had brushed off his "forgetfulness" for a couple of years with jokes, but this was what made it a reality).

He signed up for some beginner painting classes, claiming he had no formal painting training, when in reality he had spent 3 years at art college and then worked as a sign writer. He threw temper tantrums in the painting classes, and also used to make very tactless comments about other people's efforts (they were all genuine beginnners, doing it for fun) and about the teacher's abilities. He would fly into a rage if his painting wasn't "perfect" and tear it up - sounds very similar to your pupil.

How very sad for you all. It does sound quite like Adagio's pupil doesn't it? I think you're on to something..