Puzzled about this student! Options

[Misterioso]

Hi,

I'm teaching violin to a lovely wee girl of P7 age (around 11years old). She's been with me for several years, and has gradually made progress, although rather on the slower side of average. She's intelligent, but not especially musical (although she managed a distinction in her Grade 2 last November). What puzzles me is her reading of notation. At this stage, I would normally expect a child to be reasonably competent with this, but - and especially when playing a new piece, or sight-reading - it just doesn't seem to be happening. Her sight-reading in exams is always borderline passes, but as this gets tougher at Grade 3, I would really like to help her a bit more.

I do theory with her as well, and this is often another sticking-point. She often comes back "stuck" with it, despite apparently understanding it at the lesson. However, she is a really quiet, shy girl, so possibly says she understands because it's easier! Memorization of key signatures (even the first few she has met) are never remembered, and performance directions are not easily recalled. Her vocabulary and the way she expresses herself, though, are a little above average for her age.

I have mentioned this to her mother, as it did make me wonder whether she is dyslexic. She hasn't been tested, and the mother was unsure, although had noticed that she wasn't a particularly fast reader of text. It doesn't seem to be a problem with eyesight, either. I'm really not sure how best to help her with this.

I know it's hard over the ether....but any thoughts or ideas?

[accellerando]

My first thought is 'a distinction; that's excellent!'

[Scooby Doo]

She is probably memorising most of what she plays, and isn't really getting to grips with reading. I'd suggest you get hold of some materials on music for dyslexics and apply some of the strategies - whether she is dyslexic or not, they will help. Sheila Oglethorpe's book is the classic one, and there are others as well. A useful investment for any teacher.

[Misterioso]

My first thought is 'a distinction; that's excellent!'

Yes - it is, but that was after deferring the exam a couple of times because she just wasn't ready, and spending a LONG time on the pieces. She did well on the pieces (although they were probably mostly memorised as Scooby Doo points out below).

She is probably memorising most of what she plays, and isn't really getting to grips with reading. I'd suggest you get hold of some materials on music for dyslexics and apply some of the strategies - whether she is dyslexic or not, they will help. Sheila Oglethorpe's book is the classic one, and there are others as well. A useful investment for any teacher.

Yes, she is memorising. Sometimes she comes to her lesson with a piece I set her the previous week, and says she hasn't really done much with it because she "can't remember how it goes"! I will look into Sheila Oglethorpe's book - that will definitely be a useful resource to have around as I have another pupil who is dyslexic as well.

Thanks for these suggestions! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Susie]

Possible dyslexia might also explain the difficulty with memorisation of key signatures and performance directions. I had a pupil (piano) with dyslexia whose mother was most helpful. We did LCM Step 1, Step 2 and then Grade 1 - so a fairly long drawn out approach to the grade exam. Mother would take on board what had to be learnt and she was very good at helping the girl to remember words, notes and so on. She showed me a piece of paper that mum had prepared for her and clearly constant repetition over a period of weeks worked.

I had a colleague who taught Maths in school and would often take the lowest set. For what seemed like months beforehand she would do revision so that they understood the patterns and methods by simple repetition.

So it could be that a slower approach is called for and you get there in the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[accellerando]

Maybe give her some easy pieces to learn, but don't play them through first so she can't rely on her ear or memory. Her confidence inher ability to read is probably low, but she may be better than she or you realise if she could just get a boost.

[Aquarelle]

I have met this sort of thing increasingly over the years. You think a child is reading music and in fact they are using every kind of mental side step to avoid it - different kinds of memory, association, playing by ear -any device which avoids learning to read. The use of this kind of strategy is not necessarily laziness but can have a lot to do with the child's perception of our expectations and the kind of things their school education expects them to do.

I need to have a blitz on this and will be mulling it over during the summer holiday but I think some of the things I will emphasise more next year will probably include a lot more reading practice and revision both at the keyboard and away from the keyboard and a much more methodical approach to written work - in other words theory. I don't believe that the sound should be dissociated from the symbol and I don't think it is correct to teach theory as a separate entity. I think connections with the voice and instrument should be continually made. But I have a feeling that today's children need far more help with and practice at actually deciphering what is on the page than we tend to think.

[pitcher54]

There seems to be a recurring theme here, and that is that many children are reluctant to think for themselves. I am sure this has a lot to do with the way children are taught in class, and the way some children are brought up at home. Teachers have to manage 32 children at a time, and spoon-feeding them with decorative work-sheets seems to be the norm in most subjects. It is rare for children to be expected to work things out for themselves without any direction at all.

Consequently, when they come to an instrumental lesson in which they are expected to read and interpret music for themselves, it all seems like hard work. I too have children who avoid reading the notes, but I never play the music for them. I get them to tell me the letters of the notes, tell me about the note values, and explain to me where they have to put their hands on the piano, in short - I make them do the work. It's slow going, and sadly some kids continue to resist, but it has to be done.

[Misterioso]

There seems to be a recurring theme here, and that is that many children are reluctant to think for themselves. I am sure this has a lot to do with the way children are taught in class, and the way some children are brought up at home.

I couldn't agree more. The former dyslexic teenager I mentioned is a case in point. She will look at the music she is going to play, put her hands on the keyboard, then say: "Is this right?" I know from experience that she can work it out, but prefers not to bother, so I simply respond: "You tell me!" She sighs, then works it out, usually correctly. It seems to me sometimes that we, as music teachers, are indeed giving them something that is missing in school these days.

[barncottagecat]

Just one other thing that might help. My son is severely dyspraxic, and not suggesting that your pupil is, but whenever my son looks away from the stave and then looks up again, his eyes just cannot place the notes, even if he does know them. Something to do with "crossing over" and dots and lines I make "giant music" - I enlarge the music with the photocopier to to 2 or 3 times normal size and then the notes are more easily discernible. We also used a very simple on line note learning game - really basic, did it every day, till he recognised every note instantly.

[angelgirls29]

Does she know the notes by fingerings?
I had a friend who couldn't tell you the note (without 'working it out') but she could play the note (eg. point at a note, that's 1st finger on this string)

Also, could it be when you are asking her?
In my teenage years, I could only think of one thing at once - playing (stave + fingering) was something different to reading (stave + name) and the teacher telling me the name to play was different again (name + fingering) and my mind went completely blank (it got to the point that I had to spend a few minutes working out which clef I was in when changing between instruments on different days!).
I had good days when my brain was turned on but sometimes I was so tired as Life got in the way (schoolwork, friends) and this thinking was hard.
So the 'when' became a big thing for me because I had to re-engage another bit of my brain.
(But then if she's doing things at home, she should be able to engage her brain in one 'mode' hmmm.... Unless the 'mode' isn't on in that part of a lesson?)
The knowledge could be there but it may not be instant-recallable.

(Sorry if this has already been thought about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) )

[Misterioso]

Does she know the notes by fingerings?

Well....yes, and no! If I ask her the name of a note, it takes her a while to tell me what it is, although she usually gets there eventually. Chatting about this with her the other day (hopefully in a non-pressured way) she said that she finds it easier to know what note to play by thinking about the fingering - but watching her playing an unknown piece, it happens fairly frequently that she sees the next note to play, but then goes down in pitch instead of up, or vice versa (if you get my meaning).

Although it has always been a problem, it's becoming more important now as we are in the early stages of shifting. I do all I can to avoid writing in fingerings, but even so, it won't be long before she starts to see printed 3rd position fingerings on her music, and will play third finger in 1st position, in stead of third finger in 3rd position.

Scooby Doo: I really like the sound of Sheila Oglethorpe's book - but sadly (even second-hand) it is prohibitively expensive unless I can find a site that it selling it cheaper. Off to search the world-wide web.....!

Edit: Just found (and orderd!) one that I can actually afford! Thanks for this suggestion; I think it will really help.

[angelgirls29]

Well....yes, and no! If I ask her the name of a note, it takes her a while to tell me what it is, although she usually gets there eventually. Chatting about this with her the other day (hopefully in a non-pressured way) she said that she finds it easier to know what note to play by thinking about the fingering - but watching her playing an unknown piece, it happens fairly frequently that she sees the next note to play, but then goes down in pitch instead of up, or vice versa (if you get my meaning).

Is she a scale lover at all? This could help with the 'up-down' problem?
They always sound the same (therefore she wouldn't have to learn another 'piece') but the fingerings are different and maybe testing her going up and going down separately might help? (But that might be taxing on her/anyone's brain!)
In a rather strange way, I can understand her 'up-down' thing but I'm trying to think why.

Although it has always been a problem, it's becoming more important now as we are in the early stages of shifting. I do all I can to avoid writing in fingerings, but even so, it won't be long before she starts to see printed 3rd position fingerings on her music, and will play third finger in 1st position, in stead of third finger in 3rd position.

Maybe she's a literal person who does exactly as she's told? I've known a few (very intelligent) people like this who can do (say) task one because it's exactly the same as the example but task two is slightly different so they have to really really think about it. The same with practical, she can do the 'example' (which you may play or really help her with) but not the slightly different version you ask her to play as that is seen as 'different'? (Listening means you know the answer, sight reading means that you are taking an informed (very informed!) guess - but it's still not right until you know the answer, if you get my meaning?)
Also, does she understand the difference between something written and something implied (fingerings)?

Please excuse me if any of this is wrong or completely inadvisable but I kept thinking about this as it is very interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Roseau]

I have posted about this before but the equivalent of this book for the cello really helped my daughter:
http://www.amazon.com/Can-Read-Music-Readi...s/dp/0874874394

As you will see if you look at the first pages, there are no finger numbers but it is very, very progressive and separates rhythm from pitch.

I did something from the pitch pages of this book every day for about three months and by the end she could read music. She initially did about one page a day but sometimes, if I felt she hadn't grasped it, I would get her to do the same page again the following day, or sometimes even just a line several times.

I was a bit worried about what would happen when she moved out of first position which she did, about six months later, but obviously something had "clicked" in her head and she had no problems.

[AntonPiano]

There seems to be a recurring theme here, and that is that many children are reluctant to think for themselves. I am sure this has a lot to do with the way children are taught in class, and the way some children are brought up at home.

I couldn't agree more. The former dyslexic teenager I mentioned is a case in point. She will look at the music she is going to play, put her hands on the keyboard, then say: "Is this right?" I know from experience that she can work it out, but prefers not to bother, so I simply respond: "You tell me!" She sighs, then works it out, usually correctly. It seems to me sometimes that we, as music teachers, are indeed giving them something that is missing in school these days.

I hate to pipe up but this has to be said because I see it a lot on this forums, but I think your views, whilst possibly valid from your experience is a severe generalisation and frankly, as both a musician and part of the mainstream classroom set up, I am a little offended.

Maybe, when something isn't working with a student, a focus should be taken more to the approach to teaching a particular student. It's one thing to sit around and play the blame game, but maybe meeting the needs of a learner without considering them spoon fed would be far more productive. A mantra I live by; "There is more than one way to doing things".