Hymns and the Visitor, Any suggestions? Options

[jod]

Absolutely correct, Keyhorn. The minister (in the Church of England) has the last word on all matters musical.


All the Anglican difficulties described in this thread can be solved by the minister. (And should be solved by the minister.)

Barry Willams

Barry, can you clarify the position during an interregnum, please. My vicar is leaving and, although I'm not expecting any trouble, forewarned is forearmed! Who has final say over the music - is it the churchwardens or me? E.g. choice of hymns.

Thanks.

Not Barry, but in the absence of a 'minister in charge' most de jour decisions default to the Church Wardens, however, as there is provision in B20 for the Archdeacon to have an over riding decision as you as Director of Music are nominally in charge I would carefully liaise with whoever is taking each service in advance of each date, and if it causes any flack telephone the archdeacon. ( who should be supervising the appointment of a new member of Clergy anyway and understand the Pastoral implications of upsetting choir members who are not expert singers and need a weeks practice going through the hymns, and other music)

[Stephen Barber]

Absolutely correct, Keyhorn. The minister (in the Church of England) has the last word on all matters musical.


All the Anglican difficulties described in this thread can be solved by the minister. (And should be solved by the minister.)

Barry Willams

Barry, can you clarify the position during an interregnum, please. My vicar is leaving and, although I'm not expecting any trouble, forewarned is forearmed! Who has final say over the music - is it the churchwardens or me? E.g. choice of hymns.

Thanks.

Not Barry, but in the absence of a 'minister in charge' most de jour decisions default to the Church Wardens, however, as there is provision in B20 for the Archdeacon to have an over riding decision as you as Director of Music are nominally in charge I would carefully liaise with whoever is taking each service in advance of each date, and if it causes any flack telephone the archdeacon. ( who should be supervising the appointment of a new member of Clergy anyway and understand the Pastoral implications of upsetting choir members who are not expert singers and need a weeks practice going through the hymns, and other music)

My Vicar is going to be the new Archdeacon!

I intend to choose the hymns, anyway - basing them on the hymns for the equivalent Sunday 3 years ago (3-year lectionary, of course.) I can assure you that no-one will subsequently change them unless they have got my agreement first! I just wondered what would happen if someone on the PCC came up with the idea of having a "worship committee" choose them.

[Barry Williams]

Canon B20 does not disclose what should happen during an interregnum.

The Archdeacon's power relates solely to replacing the PCC in the dismissal of an organist. He or she has no other power in this matter whatsoever. The PCC has no power or discretion in matters of music whatsoever. (If they chose not to pay the organist then it becomes a matter for the minister, who can recover any payments he makes to the organist as a lawful charge on the parish accounts.) Certainly, there is no 'over-riding' Archdeacon's power over the church music in Canon B20, though there may be other relevant powers that I have yet to find.

I suspect that the answer will be in who is the 'minister' during an interregnum. I have the books and will have a look, as well as consulting legal colleagues. A further post will follow.

Barry Williams

[Barry Williams]

My collegue, Robert Leach, with whom I wrote a book on such things, reminded me that I have in the past suggested that during an interregnum the term 'minister', in this context, most probably means the cleric who is taking the service in question.

However, the Archdeacon, Rural Dean, churchwardens and PCC have no jurisdiction in this matter.

It seems to be beyond doubt that Readers have no jurisdiction over the music. However, it would be churlish not to accede to reasonable requests to changes hymns, etc., given adequate notice.

The control of the music during an interregnum is a grey area. If I have further thoughts I will post again.

Barry Williams

[Stephen Barber]

My collegue, Robert Leach, with whom I wrote a book on such things, reminded me that I have in the past suggested that during an interregnum the term 'minister', in this context, most probably means the cleric who is taking the service in question.

However, the Archdeacon, Rural Dean, churchwardens and PCC have no jurisdiction in this matter.

It seems to be beyond doubt that Readers have no jurisdiction over the music. However, it would be churlish not to accede to reasonable requests to changes hymns, etc., given adequate notice.

The control of the music during an interregnum is a grey area. If I have further thoughts I will post again.

Barry Williams

Thanks, Barry. The hymn lists are drawn up by the middle of the preceding month and any changes are very rare. The only service is the Sunday morning Eucharist and I'd be very surprised if any of the visiting clergy wanted to make any changes.

As I said, I expect to choose the hymns, which I will base on those we had three years ago - I don't think there should be any significant changes in the church's worship during an interregnum.

I just wondered where I would stand if a member of the PCC suggested that a Worship Committee should choose the hymns over this period and the PCC agreed with this. Could I say, "No, I'm doing it"?

[Barry Williams]

I suggest that you run your argument that nothing should change during an interregnum.

The PCC might not be best pleased if you told them that have no part in the music - which is the case.

Barry Williams

[Stephen Barber]

I suggest that you run your argument that nothing should change during an interregnum.

The PCC might not be best pleased if you told them that have no part in the music - which is the case.

Barry Williams

Thank you, Barry. There has been no offer from anyone else to choose the music during the interregnum. I have taken the precaution of having a spy on the PCC (my wife)!

I'm not really expecting any trouble - it's more of an academic question. It's quite useful to kinow where you stand in advance of any problems, isn't it? I haven't found anything in your invaluable book ("Everything Else An Organist should know" - in case there are any serving organists out there who haven't yet got a copy) on interregna.

P.S. I would indeed tell the PCC that they could not overrule me, if push came to shove!

[Barry Williams]

I suggest that you run your argument that nothing should change during an interregnum.

The PCC might not be best pleased if you told them that have no part in the music - which is the case.

Barry Williams

Thank you, Barry. There has been no offer from anyone else to choose the music during the interregnum. I have taken the precaution of having a spy on the PCC (my wife)!

I'm not really expecting any trouble - it's more of an academic question. It's quite useful to kinow where you stand in advance of any problems, isn't it? I haven't found anything in your invaluable book ("Everything Else An Organist should know" - in case there are any serving organists out there who haven't yet got a copy) on interregna.

P.S. I would indeed tell the PCC that they could not overrule me, if push came to shove!

Thank you Stephen.

There is some inmportant case law on organists' employment rights since it was published in 2005. We try to keep it up to date on the Website, but perhaps the time has come for a new edition.

Barry

[mrbouffant]

Slightly OT, but I saw Barry's book on the shelves in Blackwells of Oxford the other lunchtime. Made me smile.

[fsharpminor]

Songs of Praise BBC1 yesterday. 'While Shepherds watched' to the tune of 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at', apparently aka a hymn tune called Cranbrook ! As a Christian but patriotic Yorkshireman also, this was just not right ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
Its nearly as bad as having to play 'There is a Green Hill Far Away' to the tune of 'The House of the Rising Sun' which I was once asked to do on Palm Sunday.

Later edit, Apologies, this is running on another thread !

[Vox Humana]

Songs of Praise BBC1 yesterday. 'While Shepherds watched' to the tune of 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at', apparently aka a hymn tune called Cranbrook ! As a Christian but patriotic Yorkshireman also, this was just not right ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

It's worse than that. Cranbrook was composed in Kent!

[principal4]

Songs of Praise BBC1 yesterday. 'While Shepherds watched' to the tune of 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at', apparently aka a hymn tune called Cranbrook ! As a Christian but patriotic Yorkshireman also, this was just not right ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

It's worse than that. Cranbrook was composed in Kent!

Hence the supremacy of Canterbury over York!


P4 (Kentish exile reaching for flameproof suit) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BerkshireMum]

Songs of Praise BBC1 yesterday. 'While Shepherds watched' to the tune of 'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at', apparently aka a hymn tune called Cranbrook ! As a Christian but patriotic Yorkshireman also, this was just not right ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
Its nearly as bad as having to play 'There is a Green Hill Far Away' to the tune of 'The House of the Rising Sun' which I was once asked to do on Palm Sunday.

Later edit, Apologies, this is running on another thread !

We often sang this at Christmas when I was growing up in South Yorkshire - not in chapel, but round the piano at home. It's certainly an old tradition rather than an innovation.

[principal4]

[/quote]
We often sang this at Christmas when I was growing up in South Yorkshire - not in chapel, but round the piano at home. It's certainly an old tradition rather than an innovation.
[/quote]


I'm glad to hear (of) it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

P4

[jod]

However, re the reference to Paul Trepte who is Organist at Ely. At least he originally hails from Yorkshire, and his current Deputy was previously employed as Deputy in Leeds again in Yorkshire.

Cranbrook may have hailed from Kent, but Paul Trepte's arrangement was done by a Yorkshire man!