ornaments Options

[shawn]

Can i refer people to Bach Sinfonia No5 BWV 791. In bar 2, does the lower mordent and turn on beat 3 of that bar, apply to both the upper voices; i.e. the Bflat and the Dflat, or does it only apply to the alto voice, Bflat?

Furthermore. In Bach little keyboard book, page 52, six preludes, no 1 C major BWV 933, the lower mordents in bar 1 are placed not above, or below the staff lines, but within, does that mean for example that the lower mordent on beat 1 is only applicable to the C in that chord, or is this a notation applicable to the whole chord?

I'm a little confused, could someone explain please!!

[mel2]

Hi Shawn

Taking your second question first, I've had a look and I see what you mean; thinking about it practically, i don't see how you can do a mordent on a whole chord, so would take it to mean that just the C is meant in this context.

As for BWV 791, the score i looked at only put the ornament over the Bb, -it was laid out over 3 staves which made it seem quite clear.

[shawn]

Hi Shawn

Taking your second question first, I've had a look and I see what you mean; thinking about it practically, i don't see how you can do a mordent on a whole chord, so would take it to mean that just the C is meant in this context.

As for BWV 791, the score i looked at only put the ornament over the Bb, -it was laid out over 3 staves which made it seem quite clear.

Many thanks for advising me. So it seems to be a convention that ornament symbolls above a voice relate to that voice only, ornaments below a voice apply to that voice only, and symbols which straddle the line or space of a note apply to that note alone.
Do you think that if the whole C major chord in BWV 933 is to be mordent, then three symbolls would be required. Or referring back to BWV 791, that an additinal symbol would be required above the Dflat to warrant that to morent with the Bflat?

[mel2]

Brace yourself; I'm going to attempt a link and I'm useless at this sort of thing.

(Various grunting noises) http://www.sheetmusic2print.com/Media/Bach/Prelude-933.pdf

if the link doesn't work just see if you can follow it anyway - it seems to answer your qusetion regarding BWV933.

As for BWV791, I would say that you would need another symbol over the Db if a mordent on a third was required. I think I've come across them in Haydn but can't remember how it was laid out. On the example I viewed, which looked like an organ score, there was no ornament on the Db.

[shawn]

Brace yourself; I'm going to attempt a link and I'm useless at this sort of thing.

(Various grunting noises) http://www.sheetmusic2print.com/Media/Bach/Prelude-933.pdf

if the link doesn't work just see if you can follow it anyway - it seems to answer your qusetion regarding BWV933.

As for BWV791, I would say that you would need another symbol over the Db if a mordent on a third was required. I think I've come across them in Haydn but can't remember how it was laid out. On the example I viewed, which looked like an organ score, there was no ornament on the Db.

Thanks, i got your link, and it's worked out ok, i think i've got it now.
What made me think that perhaps the whole C major chord of BWV933 may mordent, is that 'Hanon virtuoso pianist' has exercises for 3 note trills, i then thought 3 note mordents might be feasable also. (Few- is there know end to these technical challenges) thanks again.

[jod]

Mel that was stunning - I mean the technical stuff very clear and the link worked.

Schawm, yes she's right the mordent/inverted mordent only applies to the voice indicated.

I don't have any emoticons that give gold stars! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif)

Will this do instead Mel?

[mel2]

I don't have any emoticons that give gold stars! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/woot.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif)

Will this do instead Mel?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)