Authenticity; Baroque .v. Piano Options

[ansatz496]

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Personally I'm currently re-working a JSB sinfonia (which used to be called a 3 part Invention). I'm trying to sound like a string trio!

Not to take things off topic, but it's funny you should say that because I've actually played several Bach sinfonias as part of a string trio! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) It works beautifully. I think your post is a nice summary of approaches towards Baroque pieces, though of course there are infinitely many ways of doing it. I think the point about being internally consistent is a good one. I think it's possible to "get away" with a lot of freedom in interpretation, sometimes even approaching unfaithfulness to the score, if it is done with conviction.

[VH2]

Playing baroque on a piano is always a compromise because no-one born in 1685 (such as JS Bach, D Scarlatti or GF Handel) had a piano to write for.

I have done a tiny bit more research into this and it seems that while JS Bach might not have warmed to the early Silberman pianos that he was shown, it very likely that Scarlatti both had access to early fortepianos, and made use of them. Although the fortepiano only displaced the harpsichord in popularity during the late 1760's and through the 1770's he could well have been using one regularly as early as the late 1730's. What is more the objective evidence suggests that he composed most of his keyboard pieces after the age of 60, in a late burst of creative genius i.e. after 1745. [Although there are many that choose not to believe this, not because of any strong evidence to the contrary, but because they dislike the idea of the works of an old man surpassing those of his youth]

In those days the fortepiano was much more expensive than an equivalent harpsichord and only royalty and high-ranking aristocrats had them. We know that his patron, Princess Maria Magdalena Barbara, later Queen of Spain, for whom he wrote most of his music, had several early fortepianos probably made by Ferrini in the style of Cristofori, although she may well have owned an instrument by the inventor Cristofori himself. She left a fortepiano in her will to the castrato Farinelli, who was a good friend of Scarlatti. Modern replicas of those instruments show that far from being undeveloped and inferior to the harpsichords of the day, they had an attractive tone, and an action not too different in feel to a modern piano. Here is a recording on a modern replica of the sort of instrument to which Scarlatti probably had access: http://www.denzilwraight.com/SevskayaGaluppi.mp3

Not bad is it? Not that different from a modern Steinway!!

There is one slight problem with my thesis. So far as I can tell the Italian/Spanish fortepianos lacked a sustain pedal or equivalent. That was an invention of Silberman's.

So there is every possibility that Scarlatti intended many of his keyboard compositions for the fortepiano, or at the very least to be suitable for both the harpsichord and for the instrument that would eventually replace it.

Why does this matter? Because it means that if the "historically correct" brigade insist that Scarlatti should best be played on a harpsichord then they are very likely just wrong. However, they could be right that the use of the pedal is not "historically correct". My view is that as Scarlatti's writing is so obviously pianistic (rather than "harpsichordistic") that they cry out for sensitive use of both pedals.

[kenm]

My view is that as Scarlatti's writing is so obviously pianistic (rather than "harpsichordistic") that they cry out for sensitive use of both pedals.

Not obvious to me; I like his music on both. I prefer to play Scarlatti on the harpsichord stop of my keyboard rather than on my piano. The keyboard allows me to choose from two Werckmeister temperaments, which were chronological possibilities for Scarlatti. The Kirnberger temperament is almost certainly too late.

[VH2]

My view is that as Scarlatti's writing is so obviously pianistic (rather than "harpsichordistic") that they cry out for sensitive use of both pedals.

Not obvious to me; I like his music on both. I prefer to play Scarlatti on the harpsichord stop of my keyboard rather than on my piano. The keyboard allows me to choose from two Werckmeister temperaments, which were chronological possibilities for Scarlatti. The Kirnberger temperament is almost certainly too late.

No problem with that:

there is every possibility that Scarlatti intended many of his keyboard compositions for the fortepiano, or at the very least to be suitable for both the harpsichord and for the instrument that would eventually replace it.

[anacrusis]

I have to say, I'm a bit puzzled about where the "baroque/original mafia" lives....?

I do prefer early instruments and historically informed performance of early music, for reasons I've given on countless occasions, but the idea that those of us who feel this way are automatically laying down the law for everyone else is simply not true: we might perhaps point out that HIP does give us clues on balance of timbre and volume, and help clarify ornamentation - but part of my beef against "modern is best" standpoints lies in the oft-made parallel accusation that early music is primitive and soulless in comparison with later genres....does preference of one approach to such music over another constitute belonging to a "mafia"? It is quite simply not true that proponents of HIP have "taken early music away" from mainstream performance - one could as easily say that the mainstream has decided that baroque music doesn't have enough of interest to it to be worth bothering with.

Okay, so in my view, the HIP lot do a better job of Bach, Handel and certainly of the likes of Rameau and Couperin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif). But it's my opinion only. I don't care for the "mafia" comments. Those who like ketchup on all their music are welcome to it.

Sorry. Hijacked that a bit. Consensus on this thread continues to be that Scarlatti on the piano is a Good Thing, that pedalling is justifiable on account of the instrument being equipped with pedals: examiners know that a range of possible approaches to execution exist and wouldn't unduly penalise a relatively "mainstream" approach. Just let 'em hear the tune, pleeeease (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

[corenfa]

Any subculture of any art can "become" a "mafia" - I only have experience of music, but this probably goes on in art and dance and etc etc etc too. Unfortunately those who shout the loudest then give the rest of the mild-mannered proponents of whatever subculture it is a bad name. When I was a composition student I remember being told that tonal music was so yesterday, atonal was really the way to go, and I also remember as a horn student that the Chicago horn sound was the way to go, and so on. I have not yet met the HIP mafia, but given my experience with the other mafias, I'm sure they exist.

In classical and baroque music I see the pedal as something that changes the colour of the instrument rather than like in Chopin (just one example) where you use it for different effect (joining notes that couldn't be joined, holding the bass while the other harmony changes). I wouldn't be trying for a Chopin-like effect in baroque music but that is my opinion, and I am not an examiner. I think the style I've come closest to trying to emulate is that of a baroque orchestra; I often try to play melody lines like they would be played on a stringed instrument. I have no idea how successful this is as I have never actually played any stringed instruments.

[agricola]

My rough guide to adding pedal or altering a composition in any way is " would the composer mind ?". Would Beethoven care if I miss a slur or staccato -- I think he probably would, so I don't do it. Would J S Bach mind if I substitute a jazz fill at the end of a fugue -- I think he would probably enjoy it ! Just judging from the sound of Scarlatti sonatas I am quite comfortable with adding either pedal ad lib to give passages a different "colour".

[anacrusis]

Hm, Bach did write quite florid passages in some of his music, and one line of thinking on that was that he didn't in fact care for the habit that some players from his own time had, of ornamenting everything to death, and so wrote out what he thought to be necessary.....but maybe that's mafiose thinking, who knows (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)?

It really isn't possible to say what a composer might have liked or disliked - they didn't have the baggage we have when it came to their music, and we don't have theirs either: all we can hope to do is to put together something which is coherent and gives the listener an experience which is musical: in meeting the needs of the times we find ourselves in, it may well diverge a lot from what was originally intended.

[Maizie]

It really isn't possible to say what a composer might have liked or disliked - they didn't have the baggage

Sorry, initially read this as "they didn't have the bagpipe", and am now in a Bach/Bagpipe confuzzled state... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

[anacrusis]

hehe, cue the Peasants' Cantata..

[Maizie]

Of course, I should know better than to look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxuhiPg66QI (nearest I could find...)

[anacrusis]

aww (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) - smallpipes are at least semi-civilised (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I was thinking of this tune albeit not quite on that instrument (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[AntonPiano]

Which piece are you playing?

The Sonata in B minor, Kp. 29 (L.449) - on the current grade 8 syllabus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You have to make up your own mind about these things, and live or die by your decision.

There are far too many people about who want to force their opinions about interpretation on everyone else. You can spot them because they use the word "should" a lot, without qualifying it with an "if <you want to achieve such-and-such> then" before going on to tell you how to achieve your ends.

Okay, so in my view, the HIP lot do a better job of Bach, Handel and certainly of the likes of Rameau and Couperin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif). But it's my opinion only. I don't care for the "mafia" comments. Those who like ketchup on all their music are welcome to it.

Sorry. Hijacked that a bit. Consensus on this thread continues to be that Scarlatti on the piano is a Good Thing, that pedalling is justifiable on account of the instrument being equipped with pedals: examiners know that a range of possible approaches to execution exist and wouldn't unduly penalise a relatively "mainstream" approach. Just let 'em hear the tune, pleeeease

I am going to take these to my piano and continue without the pedal. I've done some research and I prefer it without the sustain - I think I have the staying true to authenticity side of the argument embedded to deep to do anything different. Plus I never liked ketchup anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Interesting reading though!

[Maizie]

does preference of one approach to such music over another constitute belonging to a "mafia"?

Quite simply - no (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
If you say "there are of course many ways to play any given piece of music, but my preference is to listen to and/or play in the HIP-style", that's not mafia at all - that's personal preference and we're all allowed those!
It gets a bit different when you have people who say "there is one and only one way to correctly play this piece of music, and anybody who says differently is just wrong. And stupid. And probably a [insert-despised-group-of-choice] too", that's when it gets silly. The problem would arise if you were surrounded by people constantly telling you this sort of thing when you want to go your own way.
You get extremists in any subculture, as corenfa says, and these are the people it's just best to stay out of the way of.

[Arundodonuts]

aww (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) - smallpipes are at least semi-civilised (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Highly civilised - by virtue of their double-reedness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)