Private Baptism and Fees? Options

[vectistim]

Normally a baptism is pretty much free (except for a certificate) when done as part of a normal Sunday morning.

But what happens about the church charging for things when its a private one?

[porilo]

Sorry, but I don't quite understand the question. I have never done a baptism as part of a normal Sunday morning. All the ones I have done are usually on either a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, as a private Service, and I charge my normal fee of 55 pounds.

[Barry Williams]

Normally a baptism is pretty much free (except for a certificate) when done as part of a normal Sunday morning.

But what happens about the church charging for things when its a private one?

There is no such thing as a private baptism in the Church of England. It is always a public service, save only when it is done as an emergency.

There is no fee for baptism services, beyond the certificate. The Fees Order only prescribes fees for Baptism Certificates. It is a canonical offence for a cleric to charge for a baptism.

I am unaware of the practice in other denominations.

Barry Williams

[vectistim]

Normally a baptism is pretty much free (except for a certificate) when done as part of a normal Sunday morning.

But what happens about the church charging for things when its a private one?

There is no such thing as a private baptism in the Church of England. It is always a public service, save only when it is done as an emergency.

There is no fee for baptism services, beyond the certificate. The Fees Order only prescribes fees for Baptism Certificates. It is a canonical offence for a cleric to charge for a baptism.

I am unaware of the practice in other denominations.

Barry Williams

That is more or less what I thought, but doesn't that just apply to there not being a fee for the priest to do his bit?
Essentially I'm talking about the 'extras' that you might get with a wedding or funeral as its an analagous situation with people potentially needing to take time off work for a mid-week service.

[mrbouffant]

Essentially I'm talking about the 'extras' that you might get with a wedding or funeral as its an analagous situation with people potentially needing to take time off work for a mid-week service.

If the question is (reading between the lines) "Am I justified in requesting a fee to play the organ for a baptism outside of a normal scheduled service?" then I would say "Absolutely!" The workload will definitely be less though, so the fee should perhaps reflect that.

[jod]

Essentially I'm talking about the 'extras' that you might get with a wedding or funeral as its an analagous situation with people potentially needing to take time off work for a mid-week service.

If the question is (reading between the lines) "Am I justified in requesting a fee to play the organ for a baptism outside of a normal scheduled service?" then I would say "Absolutely!" The workload will definitely be less though, so the fee should perhaps reflect that.

In which case look at the Occasional Organist fees for your Diocese and charge the funeral rate. I believe in Ely these are ?45.00 per service. However do check with your Diocesean branch of the Royal Schools Of Church Music.

[vectistim]

Essentially I'm talking about the 'extras' that you might get with a wedding or funeral as its an analagous situation with people potentially needing to take time off work for a mid-week service.

If the question is (reading between the lines) "Am I justified in requesting a fee to play the organ for a baptism outside of a normal scheduled service?" then I would say "Absolutely!" The workload will definitely be less though, so the fee should perhaps reflect that.

For me I've suggested the same fee as for a funeral - music before and after and a couple of hymns.
But the question was a bit broader: Is the church justified in charging for any other expenses?

[Swell Box]

Normally a baptism is pretty much free (except for a certificate) when done as part of a normal Sunday morning.

But what happens about the church charging for things when its a private one?

As far as I know, Baptism is always free in the Church of England as a right, regardless of when or where the baptism takes place. However, there is a statutory charge of ?12.00 if a Certificate of Baptism is required.

Our parish has a policy of requiring baptismal families to attend Baptism Preparation Classes before their children are admitted to baptism. Our PCC has discussed charging a small fee (say ?10) to cover the costs of running these but this idea has always been strongly rejected.

However, the subject of 'private baptisms' is an interesting one. At one time these were commonplace, but the current policy is that baptisms must always be carried out at the main act of public worship on a Sunday, as follows:

Canon B21 states that:

It is desirable that every minister having a cure of souls shall normally administer the sacrament of Holy Baptism on Sundays at public worship when the most number of people come together, that the congregation there present may witness the receiving of them that be newly baptized into Christ?s Church, and be put in remembrance of their own profession made to God in their baptism.

Canon B22-9 states that:

The minister of every parish shall warn the people that without grave cause and necessity they should not have their children baptized privately in their houses.

This clearly refers to baptism outside of the church. In this case, Canon B22-8 states that : If any infant which is privately baptized do afterwards live, it shall be brought to the church and there, by the minister, received into the congregation of Christ?s flock according to the form and manner prescribed in and by the office for Private Baptism authorized by Canon B1.

This all seems to suggest that there can be no such thing as a Private Baptism.

SB

[Swell Box]

Essentially I'm talking about the 'extras' that you might get with a wedding or funeral as its an analagous situation with people potentially needing to take time off work for a mid-week service.

If the question is (reading between the lines) "Am I justified in requesting a fee to play the organ for a baptism outside of a normal scheduled service?" then I would say "Absolutely!" The workload will definitely be less though, so the fee should perhaps reflect that.

For me I've suggested the same fee as for a funeral - music before and after and a couple of hymns.
But the question was a bit broader: Is the church justified in charging for any other expenses?

Sorry, I missed your post whilst I was looking something up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In answer to your question, I don't think the church can make any charge for baptism, whether directly or indirectly (i.e. for heating, lighting or organist's fees).

However, the church can suggest a 'donation' towards its running costs. Our Rector usually suggests a donation of ?50, and by and large, we have been pleased by the generosity of baptismal families, some of whom have given several times this amount.

When considering such measures I think most PCC's now accept that baptism has largely replaced marriage as the major celebration in most families. Furthermore, in my experience it is not unusual for several children of all ages from one family, and sometimes a parent to be baptised at the same time. Consequently many families now spend hundreds or even thousands of pounds on catering for a baptism, so asking for a donation to the church is not unreasonable.

SB

[mrbouffant]

In answer to your question, I don't think the church can make any charge for baptism, whether directly or indirectly (i.e. for heating, lighting or organist's fees).

Surely the arrangement is between the parents and the organist - the church doesn't come into it.

[Swell Box]

In answer to your question, I don't think the church can make any charge for baptism, whether directly or indirectly (i.e. for heating, lighting or organist's fees).

Surely the arrangement is between the parents and the organist - the church doesn't come into it.

I don't think the church can 'get out of it'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Baptism is free, and that is that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

However, private baptisms were always very simple affairs from what I rememeber, and there was rarely any music except that provided by a gramaphone record. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

On that basis I suppose the church could offer an organist (and bellringers, for example) as an option, in much the same way that we do for weddings?

SB

[mrbouffant]

I don't think the church can 'get out of it'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Baptism is free, and that is that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Given that an organist will not (typically) be required to attend out-of-service Baptisms as part of their contract with the incumbent, it follows simply that if the baptismal party want music, they then have to negotiate with and pay a musician. That musician could be a vocal soloist, organist or ukeleleist. "The church" (whoever that is - I am still unclear what you mean when you use that term) forms no part of said negotiations, so they remain "in the clear" with regard to offering baptism "free". Perhaps I am too mercenary in my thinking, but if you want the skills and services of a third-party, you pay for it.

[Swell Box]

I don't think the church can 'get out of it'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Baptism is free, and that is that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Given that an organist will not (typically) be required to attend out-of-service Baptisms as part of their contract with the incumbent, it follows simply that if the baptismal party want music, they then have to negotiate with and pay a musician. That musician could be a vocal soloist, organist or ukeleleist. "The church" (whoever that is - I am still unclear what you mean when you use that term) forms no part of said negotiations, so they remain "in the clear" with regard to offering baptism "free". Perhaps I am too mercenary in my thinking, but if you want the skills and services of a third-party, you pay for it.

The 'Church' in this context is the Rector and the Parochial Church Council (the PCC). As a PCC member myself my understanding is that the Rector and PCC is at all times 'jointly and severally' responsible for the church buildings in their care, and for what goes on in those buildings. Churches cannot simply be 'hired out' for private purposes, and the Rector and PCC expected to turn a blind eye to what is going on inside them, especially where any kind of religious service is being held.

I fully agree any musician should receive an appropriate 'occasional fee' for their services, but it is up to the Incumbent to decide whether or not music should be provided, and by whom. (Canon B20). If the minister taking the service decides that he/she doesn't want hymns, it would be rather difficult to make a private arrangement for hymns to be sung! The Incumbent may well decide that he/she is happy for the family to agree terms with a musician directly, but it remains his/her prerogative whether or not to allow this.

SB

[jod]

I don't think the church can 'get out of it'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Baptism is free, and that is that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Given that an organist will not (typically) be required to attend out-of-service Baptisms as part of their contract with the incumbent, it follows simply that if the baptismal party want music, they then have to negotiate with and pay a musician. That musician could be a vocal soloist, organist or ukeleleist. "The church" (whoever that is - I am still unclear what you mean when you use that term) forms no part of said negotiations, so they remain "in the clear" with regard to offering baptism "free". Perhaps I am too mercenary in my thinking, but if you want the skills and services of a third-party, you pay for it.

On the question of vocal soloist... actually the only baptisms I've done have been our kids. Weddings that's a different matter. Funerals have all been choir jobs, and ordinations - they were hubby's.

My approach would be what does the organist want and either match it or look at the job in question. The chance is it will be around ?30-?45. This is to allow suitable practise time, and to rehearse with the organist. No more. The chances are it would be something I knew already or would be able to learn relatively quickly. Oh yes they would be told if they happened upon some technical nightmare where I had to do loads of work, however one takes the rough with the smooth... lots of jobs are familiar territory then there is that one which is new repertoire that takes more work... just like the Organ.

Main thing is I like to think I'm the sort of singer who, as I spend some time in the organ-loft isn't a complete nightmare to work with. If there is room singing from the loft can create a wonderful effect.

[porilo]

Normally a baptism is pretty much free (except for a certificate) when done as part of a normal Sunday morning.

But what happens about the church charging for things when its a private one?

There is no such thing as a private baptism in the Church of England. It is always a public service, save only when it is done as an emergency.

Well, actually there is because I played the organ at one a few weeks ago on a Saturday afternoon. It certainly was not an emergency.