Chopin Conclusion, Regarding Etudes Options

[pianostar]

Pianoplayer, do you think you or anyone who knows can explain what a Lydian 4th is, please?

[Cyrilla]

It's a raised 4th in a major scale - eg C D E F# (rather than F) in the scale of C major. It's the first four notes of the Lydian mode.

Hope this makes some sense!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[chocolatedog]

Same as an augmented 4th maybe? Only guessing.

Oh hi Cyrilla! How's the weather down there?!:)

This post has been edited by chocolatedog: Nov 26 2005, 02:09 PM

[Cyrilla]

Ah - yes, silly me, should have just said that, I guess!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's cloudy but not as cold as yesterday - and not a HINT of promised snow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) .

Am actually malingering at home as I have a severe chest infection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Hope you and the real chocolatedog are both hale and hearty up in that lovely scenery of yours!

[SteveHopwood]

Same as an augmented 4th maybe? Only guessing.

And a tritone - wasn't familiar with the 'Lydian 4th' description, though.

Steve (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[pianostar]

Thank you very much to everyone who explained things to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I understand now what a Lydian 4th is and the Naepolitan 6th! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Oh, and Steve - I've got your PM - thank you for that, too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry, I should have thanked you in my last post, but my computer crashed before I could finish it and I couldn't do anything to fix it till now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So, I'm very thankful for your patience...and help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *hugs*

Oh, oh, oh, can I add my contribution to the ''same as an augmented 4th'' comment made by chocolatedog?
Same as a diminished 5th? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(Knowing my luck, people will be like...NO! What are you talking about? A diminished 5ths is....etc. And I'll be really embarassed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) )

[SteveHopwood]

Thank you very much to everyone who explained things to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I understand now what a Lydian 4th is and the Naepolitan 6th! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Oh, and Steve - I've got your PM - thank you for that, too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry, I should have thanked you in my last post, but my computer crashed before I could finish it and I couldn't do anything to fix it till now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So, I'm very thankful for your patience...and help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *hugs*

Oh, oh, oh, can I add my contribution to the ''same as an augmented 4th'' comment made by chocolatedog?
Same as a diminished 5th? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

(Knowing my luck, people will be like...NO! What are you talking about? A diminished 5ths is....etc. And I'll be really embarassed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) )

To us pianists, a dim 5th and aug 4th are the same thing; C-F# or C-Gb are identical. We are lazy, of course, because the piano is tuned for us.

String players, especially, have a harder time. They will deliberately play 'on the sharp side' or 'on the flat side' of a note in order to create a specific effect. The difference between diminished and augmented intervals can be crucial to them.

Aren't you glad you play the piano? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Steve (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[pianostar]

Oh, my gosh!!! Really?? I had absolutely no idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
(sorry, my amazement may sound like sarcasm. It wasn't - I really didn't know. To me, a diminished 5th was always the same as an augmented 4th! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) )

Oh, my lord - I am glad I'm a pianist...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Well, not as pianist yet...I mean, I don't dare call myself one yet because pianists are so....wow...*looks up in awe and dreams* and I'm not wow yet, so...^.^

Oh oh - and now that we are on the topic of intervals...can I ask just one more thing? (I'm sorry Irish Loony - I have turned your thread into a question...post...thing...*pleads* I'm sorry.)
Okay, okay. This has been bugging me for ages. Just like the Chopin signature chord.

We call intervals: unison, 4th, 5th and octave as perfect, on the basis of the fact that they are the same iin both major and minor scales. The tonic, the submediant and the dominant are identical in any scale. (even harmonic and melodic, I think...)
So, on that basis, why isn't a second called perfect? The interval between the tonic and the supertonic is a tone in any scale, major or minor, so why isn't the 2nd perfect?

(P.S. I asked this question to one of my friends, and she thinks this: Because a major second is dissonant, whereas 4th and 5th can actually make up chords. e.g. Scale: E major: E F# G# A B C# D# E
E and F# is dissonant. But E+A = A major (+C# that is) and E+B= E major (+G#)
Do you think that's the reason?)

[SteveHopwood]

So, on that basis, why isn't a second called perfect? The interval between the tonic and the supertonic is a tone in any scale, major or minor, so why isn't the 2nd perfect?

I have always wondered this, and always hope my students do not think to aske me as I haven't a clue.

Answers on a postcard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Steve (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[YetAnotherPianist]

I found an answer to this posted by AP:

This information is a paraphrase of a copy of Wikipedia by the way (which explains this better than I do!).

Intervals come in pairs with inverses (except octaves and unisons which are their own inverses):

The perfect fourth is the inverse of the perfect fifth: the ratio between the frequency of notes in a perfect fifth is 3:2, the inverse of this ratio is that of the perfect fourth 4:3.

Then the major third and minor sixth are inverses with 5:4 as a major third and 8:5 as a minor sixth.

Now here comes the bit about seconds...

There are two types of seventh: major and minor and these exist in the pure major and minor scales. These must both have inverses so therefore we must need major seconds and minor seconds to be different and not perfect to invert these intervals (the reason for them being different is only what I speculate based on the article).

A major second inverts a minor seventh which has ratio 16:9 and thus must itself have a ratio of 9:8; and a minor second must invert a major seventh which has ratio of 15:8 and thus must itself have a ratio of 16:15.

It's a bit mathematical but I think that explains it, as I said the Wikipedia article explains it better than I do although it doesn't make the link to why major and minor seconds must be different, as I said that's my speculation so feel free to argue with that point!

[pianostar]

Oh, no! You don't know? I thought you would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Sorry, I just..thought you of all people may know because...well, you knew the Naepolitan 6th thing...and...yeah. Oh, well. *is slightly dissapointed* what to do oh what to do? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Hang on...which postcard?

Oh, no! You don't know? I thought you would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Sorry, I just..thought you of all people may know because...well, you knew the Naepolitan 6th thing...and...yeah. Oh, well. *is slightly dissapointed* what to do oh what to do? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Hang on...which postcard?

Bah...bad timing again! YAP, you posted this while I was typing my answer..(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) *giggles* Oh, well! At least somebody knows! Wahey!
*resumes reading*

[Cyrilla]

It really depends where the interval occurs in the scale as to whether it's described as an augmented 4th or a diminished 5th.

Also what 'number' would be given to an unaltered interval - eg in the key of C, the B below middle C to the F above it is a diminished 5th because if you count from the B to the F it is a 5th. If you count from the F to the B above it, it is only a 4th - an augmented 4th.

Both intervals contain the same number of semitones but are made up differently.

An augmented 4th is also called a tritone as it is made up of three whole tones. A diminished 5th is normally made up of two whole tones and two semitones.

Eeek - I hate explaining things in words! I'm a solfa freak and it's so easy to explain in solfa - but as I can't sing over the forums you'll have to make do with hamfisted words... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

PS Neapolitan 6ths are very easily understood and heard in solfa too!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[noodle]

I found an answer to this posted by AP:

This information is a paraphrase of a copy of Wikipedia by the way (which explains this better than I do!).

Intervals come in pairs with inverses (except octaves and unisons which are their own inverses):

The perfect fourth is the inverse of the perfect fifth: the ratio between the frequency of notes in a perfect fifth is 3:2, the inverse of this ratio is that of the perfect fourth 4:3.

Then the major third and minor sixth are inverses with 5:4 as a major third and 8:5 as a minor sixth.

Now here comes the bit about seconds...

There are two types of seventh: major and minor and these exist in the pure major and minor scales. These must both have inverses so therefore we must need major seconds and minor seconds to be different and not perfect to invert these intervals (the reason for them being different is only what I speculate based on the article).

A major second inverts a minor seventh which has ratio 16:9 and thus must itself have a ratio of 9:8; and a minor second must invert a major seventh which has ratio of 15:8 and thus must itself have a ratio of 16:15.

It's a bit mathematical but I think that explains it, as I said the Wikipedia article explains it better than I do although it doesn't make the link to why major and minor seconds must be different, as I said that's my speculation so feel free to argue with that point!

Thanks YAP! That brings back memories! When I did theory exams I had to do inversions of intervals - not mathematically but major 3rd = minor 6th. I don't think any of the exam boards include them now.

[Cyrilla]

In Kodaly training we do a lot on inversions of intervals - it makes a lot of things fall into place!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[maggiemay]

In Kodaly training we do a lot on inversions of intervals - it makes a lot of things fall into place!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It does, doesn't it ?? I had a very similar conversation with a grade 4 theory student last week - he didn't NEED to know about inversions at this stage but I think it's a very useful bit of the jigsaw.