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AB Guide to Music Theory Part 2 Question

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#1 MitchGardner1

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 07:18

Hi,

 

I am currently reading Part 2 to the AB Guide to Music Theory where I am on "Aspects of Melody". Eric Taylor talks about antecedents and consequents in the opening bars to Mozart's Piano Sonata (K576) on page 177 chapter 18/4, but what he says isn't matching up to me. He is saying:

 

"Here, the antecedent and the consequent are almost identical in their first sections: their rhythms are exactly the same, and both are formed from the notes of chords (I in the first section of the first phrase, and II in the first section of the second phrase). Notice the importance of the two cadences (imperfect at the end of the first phrase, perfect at the end of the second) in producing the question and answer effect."

 

You can find the excerpt of the piece here. I know the last quaver in bar 7 is a V chord in D, but the last quaver in bar 3 doesn't replicate that of a IV chord, though it has the bass note of it.

 

Am I missing something really obvious?


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#2 BadStrad

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 10:08

The first cadence is imperfect, it's I -> V.

Were you perhaps thinking of a IV -> I (plagal) cadence?
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#3 MitchGardner1

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:04

The first cadence is imperfect, it's I -> V.

Were you perhaps thinking of a IV -> I (plagal) cadence?

Sorry, never got the notification for your response.

 

I think that was my problem, for some reason I thought an imperfect cadence was IV - I (Plagal) in my head. Thanks for that! It makes sense now!  :D


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#4 Latin pianist

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:37

How do you get notifications of responses? Never heard of that.
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#5 Tenor Viol

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:47

How do you get notifications of responses? Never heard of that.

Profile ==> My Settings ==> Notification Options


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#6 sbhoa

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 10:32

 

The first cadence is imperfect, it's I -> V.

Were you perhaps thinking of a IV -> I (plagal) cadence?

Sorry, never got the notification for your response.

 

I think that was my problem, for some reason I thought an imperfect cadence was IV - I (Plagal) in my head. Thanks for that! It makes sense now!  :D

 

I've had this discussion with my teachers. I-V (imperfect) in the home key is the same as IV-I (plagal) in the dominant. (I think that's the right way round)


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#7 BadStrad

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 12:49

I've had this discussion with my teachers. I-V (imperfect) in the home key is the same as IV-I (plagal) in the dominant. (I think that's the right way round)

Yes that would be right but obviously the musical context would tell you which way to interpret the chords.
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#8 BadStrad

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 13:05

Thinking about bar eight. I think the G and E are appoggiaturas. If you look at the start of bar seven, the F# is an appoggiatura to the tonic of chord I (in Em preceded by the chord VII at the end of bar six).

So you have a V -> I from the end of bar seven, through the appoggiatura to the chord I in bar eight (back to D maj).
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#9 BadStrad

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 13:07

I think ET could have chosen more straight forward examples to illustrate the points.
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#10 MitchGardner1

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 15:56

Thinking about bar eight. I think the G and E are appoggiaturas. If you look at the start of bar seven, the F# is an appoggiatura to the tonic of chord I (in Em preceded by the chord VII at the end of bar six).

So you have a V -> I from the end of bar seven, through the appoggiatura to the chord I in bar eight (back to D maj).

 

So what you're saying is, the start of bar 7 is in E Minor, but the chord at the end of bar 7 brings it back in to D Major - as that is a dominant?

 

Or are you saying that the appoggiatura in bar 8 acts as a passing note to the D Major tonic chord and that bar 7 is completely E Minor?

 

So many possibles...


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#11 Hildegard

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 17:35

There's no E minor (the D# is purely chromatic). Eric Taylor makes this clear when he describes the chord of E minor at the start of the second phrase as chord II (i.e. chord II of D major). G and E in bar 8 are both appoggiaturas (not passing notes) - that is, dissonances which are approached by leap and resolved by step. From a harmonic perspective, all of bar 8 is a chord of D major.


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#12 BadStrad

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 17:36

OK. The piece is in D major. Tonic is D, dominant (chord V) is A.

Ignoring what happens in the preceeding bars: - At the end of bar six/beginning of bar seven there is a modulation to Eminor, as evidenced by the vii -> I cadence in E minor. The first clue is the accidental on the D (D#) pointing to a key change to a minor key. Couple this with the following chord I (in E minor) in bar seven and we confirm the modulation.

The chord at the end of bar six is D# F# A (chord vii in E) followed by an ornamented chord I (EGB) for most of bar seven. This creates a vii -> I cadence in E minor. The D# is harmonised so it can't be a chromatic passing note.

At the end of bar seven we have A C# E (which is chord four in E, but more importantly here, it is chord V (the dominant) of D major. Couple this with the chord I in bar eight D F# (ie the D# accidental has now been removed) and you have a V -> I cadence in D, thus confirming a return to the key to D major.

It is the V -> I (or vii -> I) cadence that confirms the key change, coupled with the addition or removal of the accidental (in this case the D#).

Passing notes are part of a stepwise movement (approached and left by step). An Appoggiatura is approached by a leap and left by a step (usually in the opposite direction).

Edit - Cross posted with H, but having typed all this, I'm leaving it here. :)
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#13 MitchGardner1

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 22:59

There's no E minor (the D# is purely chromatic). Eric Taylor makes this clear when he describes the chord of E minor at the start of the second phrase as chord II (i.e. chord II of D major). G and E in bar 8 are both appoggiaturas (not passing notes) - that is, dissonances which are approached by leap and resolved by step. From a harmonic perspective, all of bar 8 is a chord of D major.

 

 

OK. The piece is in D major. Tonic is D, dominant (chord V) is A.

Ignoring what happens in the preceeding bars: - At the end of bar six/beginning of bar seven there is a modulation to Eminor, as evidenced by the vii -> I cadence in E minor. The first clue is the accidental on the D (D#) pointing to a key change to a minor key. Couple this with the following chord I (in E minor) in bar seven and we confirm the modulation.

The chord at the end of bar six is D# F# A (chord vii in E) followed by an ornamented chord I (EGB) for most of bar seven. This creates a vii -> I cadence in E minor. The D# is harmonised so it can't be a chromatic passing note.

At the end of bar seven we have A C# E (which is chord four in E, but more importantly here, it is chord V (the dominant) of D major. Couple this with the chord I in bar eight D F# (ie the D# accidental has now been removed) and you have a V -> I cadence in D, thus confirming a return to the key to D major.

It is the V -> I (or vii -> I) cadence that confirms the key change, coupled with the addition or removal of the accidental (in this case the D#).

Passing notes are part of a stepwise movement (approached and left by step). An Appoggiatura is approached by a leap and left by a step (usually in the opposite direction).

Edit - Cross posted with H, but having typed all this, I'm leaving it here. :)

 

Thanks both. After numerous times playing this now and reading it over and over it makes sense. I think I was really overthinking the mark here and when Badstrad helped me with understanding the first cadence and how I got mixed up, it's now sort of, clicked.

 

And appoggiaturas, i've just re-read 15/5 p.118 again, just makes it all click into place even more. Though that's why I also called it them passing notes, as Eric Taylor references to them as "Accented passing notes" if approached 'by step', which was probably me taking it in when I was a little tired!


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#14 Hildegard

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:44

Just to add that, for me, the place to look to see if a modulation has taken place is the cadence at the end of a phrase, which here is V-I in D major.

There is indeed a progression at the start of the phrase that could be analysed as vii-Ib in the key of E minor, but it is not a cadence as it doesn't conclude the phrase. Accordingly, I would regard the chord of E minor as chord ii of D major - a very standard cadence approach chord (ii - V - I in D major).

My view is probably coloured by the fact that I know the piece and know that Mozart would never start a sonata exposition by modulating to the supertonic before it has hardly begun (and by the fact that Eric Taylor describes the chord of E minor as II in D major).

Hope that helps! I have spent a disproportionate part of my life explaining to A-level students how chromaticism differs from modulation. :)


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#15 BadStrad

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:06

Hands up! Yeah, I over used "cadence" and agree that they come at the end of a phrase. Also agree that ii - V - I is a common progression.

While I agree that the progression could be (and indeed is) treated as chromaticism by (ET and H), a fully harmonised VII -> I progression (as we have here) can be argued to be a modulation.
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