Piano teachers teaching singing, why? Options

[VerityG]

Before I start, I should point out that I mean piano teachers who have not studied singing, but think that after accompanying so many singers, they are fit to teacher singing.
I have only recently started teaching and I was wondering if any other singing teachers struggle with it? My old singing teacher said that she spends half her life correcting the mistakes taught by piano teachers teaching singing. In my own experience, I've been on here before talking about one of my young students, a 10yr old singer. She turned up to the first session, and sang exactly as I would expect a beginner to sing, her voice was completely raw. After the lesson, the mother told me that the girl had been taking singing lessons for a year and she had sung through the whole grade 2 book, could I please pick the songs for grade 2 and enter her for June. I was horrified that someone could have a year of lessons, yet sound so raw. There was no way I was putting her in for grade 2! With a bit of diplomacy I talked her out of it. At the next lesson, I quizzed the pupil and found out that it was her piano teacher who taught her and they had just sung four songs from the grade 1 book and then moved onto the grade 2 book. I'm so angry that this teacher led both mother and daughter to be believe that she was grade 2 standard when in fact she isn't even grade 1 standard! What a waste of a year's worth of lessons, thankfully the teacher did no damage, but she didn't do anything at all! What a waste of money. And I seriously worry about the teacher's methods in general when her only focus in the exams. The mother isn't musical and so she seems to have been led to believe that exams are all that music is about. It's such a shame for a girl of only 10. She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.
Verity
X

[ExpressYourself]

I don't disagree with you but I wondered what you meant by raw.

With young students at G1 level I try and keep them sounding as natural as possible. We work on some technique for warming up the voice, breathing and if necessary some neck anchoring or retraction to help pitching. I wonder what people might think of my students if they took them on later. Especially since I am also a piano teacher.

[Alicia Ocean]

Another piano teacher here. I don't teach singing - but my own singing teacher thinks I should.
I might have to decide not to risk it in case any future teacher of a possible future pupil has bad things to say about me.
But then my singing teacher is seriously qualified and so perhaps her opinion is worth something.

What does "raw" mean?

[Dugazon]

Right, one of my major bugbears (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

First of all: There is a difference between a singing teacher who also happens to be a piano teacher at the same time (or vice versa). They have the necessary skills required to teach both instruments. We are not talking about those.

There are quite a few pianists out there though who think that being a song teacher is the same as being a singing teacher - it isn't, and it annoys me greatly if I "inherit" students who (at best) have learned nothing or (at worst) have been vocally wrecked.
Teaching a song musically, and maybe a bit of phrasing, is NOT the same as teaching singing technique. And yes, it IS a massive, and very common, problem. I wonder how many piano teachers teach the trumpet - why do they think singing is any different? Truth is, it is often just used as an additional source of income if the piano teaching alone doesn't do the trick, and I personally find this unethical, but hey...

If you are a repetiteur, that's different, but they tend to work with singers who already have half-decent technique, and usually on musical aspects.

I cannot say what you mean by "raw" of course, and I would also say that the voice of a singing student so young should be kept fairly natural, so it is quite hard to judge in that case without hearing the student. You CAN hear though if someone has just been taught songs, or if they've actually been taught healthy voice production.

[Seer_Green]

I'm a piano teacher who teaches singing, but then again, I'm a singing teacher who teaches piano (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) At the end of the day, I'm more interested in whether they can do a good job rather than what combination of things they teach. I can't say I've come across many piano teachers teaching singing 'on the side' but no doubt it happens. Most of the trouble I've had has come from singing teachers (or in one case, a violin teacher who taught singing).

Sadly, there are many 'rogue' teachers out there and there's little we can do about it except make sure we do a good job ourselves. Certainly I've inherited plenty of pupils from supposedly well-qualified teachers who've learnt nothing. The same old debate about qualifications continues...

As teachers, we will always inherit pupils who've had a not-so-good teacher in the past - it's part of the job. What's important is that whilst not ignoring what they've already done, we do move on. Some of these situations might make me angry, but I wouldn't say anything directly to the pupil or parents because partly it's none of my business, and partly I know I only hear part of the story. Whatever you think personally, be positive and move on.

[miffy]

Best to move on from where you are now, fill in any gaps you feel are missing etc. Unless you know exact circumstances (or even if you do) it's best not to too verbal about a previous teacher and I assume this is her current piano teacher that she is still with? The girl sounds musical, so enjoy.
And look on the bright side, being taught singing by a piano teacher, she may even be able to read the music.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

[violincjj]

Best to move on from where you are now, fill in any gaps you feel are missing etc. Unless you know exact circumstances (or even if you do) it's best not to too verbal about a previous teacher and I assume this is her current piano teacher that she is still with? The girl sounds musical, so enjoy.
And look on the bright side, being taught singing by a piano teacher, she may even be able to read the music.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Possibly only if the notes have numbers above them though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[fatar760]

I don't disagree with you but I wondered what you meant by raw.

With young students at G1 level I try and keep them sounding as natural as possible. We work on some technique for warming up the voice, breathing and if necessary some neck anchoring or retraction to help pitching. I wonder what people might think of my students if they took them on later. Especially since I am also a piano teacher.

May I ask what neck anchoring is? Sounds rather dangerous....

Before I start, I should point out that I mean piano teachers who have not studied singing, but think that after accompanying so many singers, they are fit to teacher singing.
I have only recently started teaching and I was wondering if any other singing teachers struggle with it? My old singing teacher said that she spends half her life correcting the mistakes taught by piano teachers teaching singing. In my own experience, I've been on here before talking about one of my young students, a 10yr old singer. She turned up to the first session, and sang exactly as I would expect a beginner to sing, her voice was completely raw. After the lesson, the mother told me that the girl had been taking singing lessons for a year and she had sung through the whole grade 2 book, could I please pick the songs for grade 2 and enter her for June. I was horrified that someone could have a year of lessons, yet sound so raw. There was no way I was putting her in for grade 2! With a bit of diplomacy I talked her out of it. At the next lesson, I quizzed the pupil and found out that it was her piano teacher who taught her and they had just sung four songs from the grade 1 book and then moved onto the grade 2 book. I'm so angry that this teacher led both mother and daughter to be believe that she was grade 2 standard when in fact she isn't even grade 1 standard! What a waste of a year's worth of lessons, thankfully the teacher did no damage, but she didn't do anything at all! What a waste of money. And I seriously worry about the teacher's methods in general when her only focus in the exams. The mother isn't musical and so she seems to have been led to believe that exams are all that music is about. It's such a shame for a girl of only 10. She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.
Verity
X

This would concern me more

[owainsutton]

She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.

This would concern me more

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Regarding singing, us string teacher have to get pupils singing. I've started taking this to the extent of actually giving them songs to learn, and I've plucked many from the Grade 1 repertoire simpy because I don't know enough to judge the level otherwise. However, I'm certainly not presenting it to them as 'teaching singing', just getting them used to using their voices, especially in relation to pitches, intervals and tonal centres.

Maybe one or two of them will unintentionally misrepresent this to others, in that their violin teacher 'also taught/teaches them singing', but I can't help that.

[miffy]

Best to move on from where you are now, fill in any gaps you feel are missing etc. Unless you know exact circumstances (or even if you do) it's best not to too verbal about a previous teacher and I assume this is her current piano teacher that she is still with? The girl sounds musical, so enjoy.
And look on the bright side, being taught singing by a piano teacher, she may even be able to read the music.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Possibly only if the notes have numbers above them though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[violincjj]

Best to move on from where you are now, fill in any gaps you feel are missing etc. Unless you know exact circumstances (or even if you do) it's best not to too verbal about a previous teacher and I assume this is her current piano teacher that she is still with? The girl sounds musical, so enjoy.
And look on the bright side, being taught singing by a piano teacher, she may even be able to read the music.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Possibly only if the notes have numbers above them though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Blimey, it's not as easy as it used to be to start a squabble on here is it?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



It seems to me that singing teachers more than any other kind tend to disagree with their colleagues about methods. There are simply more ways of teaching and learning singing than there are of teaching and learing the piano, perhaps.

I don't think personally that there is anything at all wrong with being a 'song' teacher for young kids while also giving some very gentle hints about breathing and voice production, this can be done while 'doing no harm' and keeping the voice natural.

Maybe the piano teacher can do this! Or the violin teacher!

[violincjj]

She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.

This would concern me more

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Regarding singing, us string teacher have to get pupils singing. I've started taking this to the extent of actually giving them songs to learn, and I've plucked many from the Grade 1 repertoire simpy because I don't know enough to judge the level otherwise. However, I'm certainly not presenting it to them as 'teaching singing', just getting them used to using their voices, especially in relation to pitches, intervals and tonal centres.

Maybe one or two of them will unintentionally misrepresent this to others, in that their violin teacher 'also taught/teaches them singing', but I can't help that.

I know a LOT of good songs for violinists! I'll write a list when there's a minute...

[Dugazon]

I don't think personally that there is anything at all wrong with being a 'song' teacher for young kids while also giving some very gentle hints about breathing and voice production, this can be done while 'doing no harm' and keeping the voice natural.

Of course everyone can teach musicianship through a bit of singing, but at no point should student or parent be made to believe this is the same as teaching singing (technique). Needless to say that parents themselves sometimes don't understand the difference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"Gentle hints about breathing and voice production" also imply actually being equipped to give these, and having sufficient knowledge about the voice. As soon as you teach voice production, you are not just teaching musicianship through singing anymore.

It's like the difference between teaching someone to "somehow" play a tune on the piano (can also be done without harm to the student), with no focus on posture, handshape and fingering, and actually teaching them to do it with proper technique. Both are okay, depending on goal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

There are many people who can help a singer at any given point, not all of them teach technique (I coincidentally wrote a blog about this recently). It has to be clear though what's required, and student expectations and what the teacher can offer need to be matched. If the student wants to just sing a few songs and isn't bothered about technique, a song teacher is okay. If they want to learn singing technique, they need someone who can teach it. Quite simple really.

It's right though: If you get a student who's been taught bad (or no) technique, you should just try to undo it as best you can and not dwell on it, especially not in front of the student. You can't help but wonder sometimes though - and occasionally think you should also start teaching any instrument you ever laid hands on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[AnnC]

1) It seems to me that singing teachers more than any other kind tend to disagree with their colleagues about methods. There are simply more ways of teaching and learning singing than there are of teaching and learing the piano, perhaps.

2) I don't think personally that there is anything at all wrong with being a 'song' teacher for young kids while also giving some very gentle hints about breathing and voice production, this can be done while 'doing no harm' and keeping the voice natural.

Maybe the piano teacher can do this! Or the violin teacher!

1) Possibly - since there is more than one genre of singing. Classical vocal setup is not the same as pop belt, as Broadway belt, as rock, etc. That includes breathing methods, too.

2) Well, maybe. Nothing wrong with teaching songs per se, but how many times have we heard on the Voice forum about school music teachers expecting little Susie to learn a song which has notes in it she finds uncomfortably high? One size does not fit all. And Mrs Mother might well not differentiate between Susie learning songs and learning to sing. As far as she is concerned Susie is having singing lessons, and talks, and before long teacher has more "singing" pupils. Nice addition to her/his income! With a view to handing them on to "someone who knows what they are doing, of course," after about grade 3 (words actually said to me by a piano teacher). So no harm done?

I'm not sure what you mean about "gentle hints about breathing and voice production". Do piano/violin/pick your instrument teachers who have not studied singing know about this - I mean properly? And how to handle young voices - even some singing teachers shy away from this, or carry on in blissful ignorance, at worst ruining a voice, at best making no improvement.
I once asked a piano teacher to accompany some of my younger pupils at a festival. When she came to the rehearsal she asked me for some tips - "because I am not a singer, you know." Some years later I had a new starter who had had several years of singing lessons from the above teacher and really needed remedial work!
Another pupil had had four years of lessons with a different teacher - this time a drama one. it took me a year to get rid of her wobble, while another student who had been to the same teacher couldn't sing more than five notes without taking a breath!
Not picking an argument, Violincjj - you just kindly brought up a few points I wanted to answer from the other perspective.
Sorry - I'm with the OP and Dugazon on this one. I am allegedly around grade 8 standard on the piano (former piano teacher says) but I wouldn't dream of teaching it, even if I were down on my last penny. Leave it to the experts, I say. Trouble is, as everyone sings, some think they know how to teach it - or at least not do any harm. In my opinion, these can be the most dangerous kind of teachers because they are unaware of the harm they may cause.
I wonder what a (proper) singing teacher would say about how other-instrument-teachers-of-songs sing? Food for thought.

[fatar760]

She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.

This would concern me more

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Because she's 10 years old and it sounds like she's been pushed through exam after exam. Will be surprised if much of that had been truly learnt and understood