Piano teachers teaching singing, why? Options

[VerityG]

Sorry, by 'raw' I meant that her voice is completely untrained, exactly what I would expect from someone who has never had a single singing lesson. It seems that this teacher just got her to sing through the songs, just learning the notes and the words, nothing else. She sang me her favourite song that she had even performed (I do not know where) and I got her to sing it to me the next week as well to check that it wasn't just nerves but she was breathing in the middle of phrases, struggling to pitch a lot of the notes, no dynamics, completely blank facial expression etc etc - basically apart from the words and the vague melody, nothing was right. I'm also very concerned that she's just being forced through the exams and missing a lot an awful lot of what music is about. But what her piano teacher does is none of my business except that I'm concerned about the child and her mother's expectations of singing. I refuse to do the same with singing. I will do put her in for grade 2 until I think she's capable of it, because if I had put her in for grade 2 this June like her mother asked, it would have been a real shock.

[Seer_Green]

Sorry, by 'raw' I meant that her voice is completely untrained, exactly what I would expect from someone who has never had a single singing lesson.

In some ways, for me, that would be a bit of a relief because it's something to work with from scratch.

[AnnC]

Sorry, by 'raw' I meant that her voice is completely untrained, exactly what I would expect from someone who has never had a single singing lesson.

In some ways, for me, that would be a bit of a relief because it's something to work with from scratch.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) And it begs the question - what have the parents been paying good money for? Especially with all the other issues VerityG has pointed out. Money for old rope! They might as well have taken a ten pound note and set fire to it every week. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[VerityG]

Sorry, by 'raw' I meant that her voice is completely untrained, exactly what I would expect from someone who has never had a single singing lesson.

In some ways, for me, that would be a bit of a relief because it's something to work with from scratch.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) And it begs the question - what have the parents been paying good money for? Especially with all the other issues VerityG has pointed out. Money for old rope! They might as well have taken a ten pound note and set fire to it every week. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Yes, I am relieved that I do not have to undo any damage, but I'm angry that they've paid for a year's worth of lessons and have nothing to show for it other than the belief that the girl is of a grade 2 standard when she's not even grade 1! I am not looking forward to explaining this to the mother!
I am also rather concerned about this particular teacher's approach to music - that you simply go from one exam straight to the other. I'm worried that this will conflict with my teaching if the mother expects me to do the same thing, as I definitely won't. I suppose in that case it's probably better that we part ways and she finds a teacher who will, it's just a shame for the poor girl in the middle.

[Seer_Green]

I am also rather concerned about this particular teacher's approach to music - that you simply go from one exam straight to the other.

Sadly, this seems to be relatively common (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[owainsutton]

"Gentle hints about breathing and voice production" also imply actually being equipped to give these, and having sufficient knowledge about the voice. As soon as you teach voice production, you are not just teaching musicianship through singing anymore.

I read 'Gentle hints about breathing and voice production', in the context of an instrumental teacher and a reluctant singer, to pretty much mean confidence-building. Enough to actually produce a note, any note, with their voice.

[Arundodonuts]

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Because she's 10 years old and it sounds like she's been pushed through exam after exam. Will be surprised if much of that had been truly learnt and understood

Surely it depends how long she has been at it? On the BBC Young Musician programme it was mentioned that one competitor went from Grade 6 to 8 in 6 months aged 8. He appears to have understood it all since he got to the keyboard final.

I know a couple of oboists whose first instrument was piano. One started aged 7 and the other 2!

[fatar760]

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Because she's 10 years old and it sounds like she's been pushed through exam after exam. Will be surprised if much of that had been truly learnt and understood

Surely it depends how long she has been at it? On the BBC Young Musician programme it was mentioned that one competitor went from Grade 6 to 8 in 6 months aged 8. He appears to have understood it all since he got to the keyboard final.

I know a couple of oboists whose first instrument was piano. One started aged 7 and the other 2!

I'm quite certain there are exceptions - but given the context of the OP concerns, it rather sounds to me like this girl has been pushed through exams beyond her level. And that this trend is about to continue with Grade 6 piano and Grade 5 theory is, I think, a cause for concern.

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

[owainsutton]

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

I think it might be a trade secret, and we have to take singing lessons to find out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Catey]

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

I think it might be a trade secret, and we have to take singing lessons to find out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

[Arundodonuts]

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

I think it might be a trade secret, and we have to take singing lessons to find out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

I think you may be right. This web site http://singingself.wordpress.com/category/vocal-health/ seems to think you can take two words and apply a trade mark to them (a typically American stance).

[Dugazon]

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

Although I wasn't the one who brought it up:

All forms of anchoring, of which neck anchoring is a part, are a way to take stress off the larynx/vocal folds via muscular support. Neck anchoring means stabilising the vocal tract from the back (Semispinalis) and front/sides (SCMs) - the latter are the muscles which some people have trouble telling apart from bulging neck veins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) .

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsys...s/tutorial.html

The page Arundodonuts posted also explains it, although it might leave you under the impression it can feel rather tense, which it doesn't if done properly. It's certainly not a "secret", but you are unlikely to come across it if you don't take singing lessons (which maybe proves a point about the difference between teaching technique and teaching songs. You don't have to bombard your students with jargon btw in case anyone thinks so - you simply show them what to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

If you want to delve a bit deeper, maybe have a look at "Singing and the Actor" (although here, the term used is "external anchoring"), or think about an Estill workshop.

[VH2]

As piano teachers we cannot teach singing technique (unless we are also trained singing teachers) and we have no inerest in teaching songs as songs (except maybe to entertain a mixed class in school on a wet afternoon).

But what we do need to do is get our students to accurately pitch the notes of a tune with the voice, as a preliminary to finding them first-time with the fingers on the keyboard. But as we do so little of it, and in such a limited tonal range, it is hard to imagine that we could be damaging anyone's voice.

[Dugazon]

As piano teachers we cannot teach singing technique (unless we are also trained singing teachers) an we have no inerest in teaching songs as songs (except maybe to entertain a mixed class in school on a wet afternoon).

But what we do need to do is get our students to accurately pitch the notes of a tune with the voice, as a preliminary to finding them first-time with the fingers on the keyboard. But as we do so little of it, and in such a limited tonal range, it is hard to imagine that we could be damgaing anyone's voice.

No, and that's absolutely okay - I don't think any singing teacher would have problems with this (I certainly don't!). My personal gripe is with the ones who sell "song sessions" as singing lessons, leaving their customers under the wrong impression they actually teach singing technique. Instead, they do all sorts of weird (and sometimes damaging) stuff along the way for lack of knowing better.

[violincjj]

I'm not sure what you mean about "gentle hints about breathing and voice production". Do piano/violin/pick your instrument teachers who have not studied singing know about this - I mean properly? And how to handle young voices - even some singing teachers shy away from this, or carry on in blissful ignorance, at worst ruining a voice, at best making no improvement.
Not picking an argument, Violincjj - you just kindly brought up a few points I wanted to answer from the other perspective.
.

I guess I mean things like the things that my school class music teacher told us in the days when we all sang songs in music lessons? They didn't profess to be expert 'singing teachers' but they encouraged everyone to find their voice and enjoy using it. This doesn't seem to happen any more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I am sure I don't know everything at all about teaching kids singing (as well as violin) but I am sure I am not doing any harm. They seem to be doing well, I have some who got into NYCGB and another has a Choristership at a specialist music school, they get good marks and comments in exams and festivals.

They don't sing innappropriate songs in unsuitable clothes accompanied by arm waving either, unlike the pupils of a local teacher who is Very Qualified! I think one cannot generalise about all this really.