Studying music and antidepressants, slowing down the brain process Options

[Lee King]

I, as some of you will know have tremendous difficulty learning to sight read piano music and many times when I'm playing I just think fast enough to be able to read the next notes/chords and put them into action in time so as not to disrupt the timing of the piece.

But I have been on antidepressant medication for fifteen years, firstly good old Prozac and then citalopram. Recent ill spells mean that if I go back to the health centre, I'll get put onto a third one and I fear that greatly.

But back to the subject. I feel that my ability to learn new things (for example the skill of sight reading) is being greatly impeded by my antidepresants, as they may be 'slowing down' my brain. I have been told that my age (42) is nothing to do with this, and I know my teacher has lots of senior citizens who are doing successfully what I'm struggling to do so much so that it threatens to take away the fun of learning to play a musical instrument.

Has anybody else had, or is having instances with prescription antidepressant drugs slowing down their ability to play music?? I would be very interested to read other people's experiences (if you don't want to share them in public, PM me instead) I know I am no stranger to learning things, in 5 years in the 1990s I picked up the Welsh language that I became a fluent speaker and even now it just will not leave my head. And I don't have any Welsh in me at all - so I'm no thicko!!!!

Thank you

LK.

[aesir22]

Both fluoxetine and citalopram are called selective seratonin reuptake inhibitors. Basically they reduce the amount of seratonin being wasted in the brain. There is no reason why you should be suffering to play piano while taking these unless the side effects are making you feel groggy or spaced out. Your ability to learn new things should not be inhibited by the medication - you say yourself you have learned other things from scratch! Lack of motivation, difficulty concentrating, feeling tired...these are all classic symptoms of depression. So if you find you are not in the mental frame of mind to practice sightreading and achieve goals, it might mean that its not the antidepressants causing the issues, but rather the dosage needs altering/drug changing to treat the underlying symptoms of depression. Once that is regulated you may find your motivation and concentration improve.

I would be wary about trying to blame them as thecause of your issues. It sets a negative mindset 'I need to be on them so I will never be able to sightread' and having something to blame your struggles on (no offence intended here) means you are less likely to progress. Its like admitting defeat without pushing yourself.

Like any musical instrument, piano takes time to learn, and we all come across bits that sometimes can't be resolved in a few hours. Accumulating good sight reading skills can take years of practice, and unfortunately some people just don't attain the level of skill they want.

So I'd not worry about the antidepressants. Set yourself up with a realistic practice plan with realistic goals and just keep pushing yourself.

[carol*piano]

You do need to keep in mind that sight-reading is pretty much the most difficult aspect of learning an instrument. Your sight-reading skills will be, on average, 2 grades behind your playing skills. If I were you, I'd just stop beating myself up about sight-reading and enjoy playing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HelenVJ]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with carol.

By the way, if you are thinking of taking an exam ( as opposed to acquiring the useful skill of sight-reading for its own sake), have you looked at the TG syllabus? You get a choice - to offer sight-reading or - not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif). Choose 2 out of Musical Knowledge, Sight-reading, aural ( based purely on listening - no singing required) and Improvisation. In other words, you can be tested on your strengths. In my view, the repertoire (for piano, at least) seems harder than that set for AB (sweeping generalisation, but....), but is often more interesting. And you can check out the difference in the amount of technical work required.

Some of my best and most musical students have yet to acquire anything like fluent sight-reading skills.

[linda.ff]

Also bear in mind that for a poor sight-reader, that test is not worth beating yourself up over. For the AB the total mark is 21. The "pass" mark - and remember, it's just an aggregate that gets you through the eam, not "passing" every section - is 14. And what do you get if you put on a really poor show at sight-reading? 3? 4? No, you might get as low as 10. Possibly even 9, I think I've seen that. But it's likle these jokes about eams where you get 5-% for spelling your name right: as long as you actually do it, you'll get some marks. From what you say, it doesn't sound as though you'd be as low as 9 or 10 anyway.

I can tell you that I had a young lady pass grad 5 singing several years ago with distinction and a mark of about 11 for sight-reading. She did have good aural and a string of 28s and a 29 for her songs, though.

It REALLY is not worth beating yourself up about, Lee We had a thread on teachers' forum recently (which I started) comparing the benefits of "cold" sight-reading and quick study, and, yes, there were a few people who said they had to be able to sight-read first-off as part of their job. But many people don't - I don't think you're aiming to, are you? So why do you need to sight-read?
1. To be able to learn to play a new piece
2. To join in with other musicians (like playing duets)
3. To pass a sight-reading test or not fail by too much.

1 - if you're larning the mujsic in your own time you are permitted to make as many mistakes as you like, and to bash and re-bash notes (as long as you're wearing those headphones)
2 - if you get to the point when you're reading through for the first time with other people, you are allowed to skip bits, as long as you know where you should be, or play just one hand for w while. If they don't like you doing that, don't play with them again
3 - is surprisingly the first reason given me by some of my pupils when I ask them why they learn to sight-read, which I think is sad. For almost all people it's not like Real Life.

I know you're practising Sight Reading with Sight-Rreading tests, and it's very laudable, but I do think you might actually improve your sight-reading just as quick by trying out (don't even call it sight-reading) music you think you might like. Lots of it. And allowing yuourself to be as messy as you like. And it doesn't haver to be the one thing or the other. Prsctising the Sight-Reading tests does prepare you well for a Sight-rReading section of an exam, but I doubt it will bring you the joy of just exploring new music in your own good time

(Takes off my Heretics'r'Us hat)

[Arundodonuts]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with carol.

Me too. Approaching Grade 7 oboe (so only 1 note at a time!!) I am just starting to feel a bit comfortable with having a piece of sight reading plonked in front of me.

My key to success I'm sure is covering loads of new repertoire and being in 2 windbands and 2 orchestras which constantly throw in new material.

Oh and I'm 58.

It's a long slow road.

Also bear in mind that for a poor sight-reader, that test is not worth beating yourself up over. For the AB the total mark is 21. The "pass" mark - and remember, it's just an aggregate that gets you through the eam, not "passing" every section - is 14. And what do you get if you put on a really poor show at sight-reading? 3? 4? No, you might get as low as 10. Possibly even 9, I think I've seen that. But it's likle these jokes about eams where you get 5-% for spelling your name right: as long as you actually do it, you'll get some marks. From what you say, it doesn't sound as though you'd be as low as 9 or 10 anyway.

Good point. Despite considering myself to be a poorish sight reader I haven't had less than 17 in an exam. Largely I suspect because I get the rhythm generally right. The notes are a bonus.

[DaisyChain]

I agree with others. Take sight reading at a steady pace. I've recently started using the Paul Harris 'How To Improve Your Sight reading' books. There's one for every grade. I would recommend you have a look at these- apologies if you are already.

As for citalopram...I was on these myself for two and a half years up until Christmas last year. They did slow down my concentration and ability to play...but they pretty much slowed down my ability to think about most things all the time I was on them. It was extremely frustrating, but I tried not to get too worked up about it- with various levels of success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) One day I could play ok- another it was a disaster. I just left the piano and went off and did something else instead. I learnt that the more frustrated I became, the worse it got. Quite often I couldn't care less if I never played piano again.

I was almost 40 when I first started playing piano, and was 46 when I needed citalopram. I'm 49 now and am gradually getting back on my feet..both mentally and in regards to music.

[Lee King]

I agree with others. Take sight reading at a steady pace. I've recently started using the Paul Harris 'How To Improve Your Sight reading' books. There's one for every grade. I would recommend you have a look at these- apologies if you are already.

As for citalopram...I was on these myself for two and a half years up until Christmas last year. They did slow down my concentration and ability to play...but they pretty much slowed down my ability to think about most things all the time I was on them. It was extremely frustrating, but I tried not to get too worked up about it- with various levels of success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) One day I could play ok- another it was a disaster. I just left the piano and went off and did something else instead. I learnt that the more frustrated I became, the worse it got. Quite often I couldn't care less if I never played piano again.

I was almost 40 when I first started playing piano, and was 46 when I needed citalopram. I'm 49 now and am gradually getting back on my feet..both mentally and in regards to music.

From earlier replies to my question I was going to take a rain check on going back to the GP's, and put it down to my extremely negative thought patterns. But I'm glad that you know how it feels, having been on the same 'happy pill' as what I'm on now. I feel like some times there is this thick mist between my eyes and music stand, or that there is 'something' that's stopping the information from sinking in. My teacher has put me onto the Paul Harris IYSR grade 2 book, which I started at stage 1 exactly one week ago today. I follow what he says to the letter and when I do play the exercises I do them slower than Dead Slow. Sometimes I can play them perfectly, other times I don't sharpen or flatten buy I try to keep a good rhythm.

I do hope to God that I will be ready to take the exam in June/July, but maybe a visit to my GP will be in order. I first started playing when I was only a couple of years younger than you, primrose.....however I convinced myself I wasn't that good (was the depression talking) and only started again in January.

[PatC]

Along the lines of what linda.ff said, here's what I do. Every time I practise, I do a bit of sight reading - maybe 5 mins or so. I do a bit from a book like Paul Harris, an example test, and (the good bit) one or two things from a graded repertoire book like Classics to Moderns or Romantic Piano or Keyboard Anthology. This is actually enjoyable! and a reward for the Paul Harris / test exercise. Of course you could choose any old book for this, but the advantage of a graded book is you can gear it more to what you are trying to achieve (2 grades below your general playing level).

I also sometimes go over old Paul Harris / example tests at a level below where I currently am (or should be), trying to obey ALL the performance instructions, which sadly usually go by the board.

Good luck with it - I dream that one day it will all fall into place, I will be reading 2 bars ahead etc etc ... (not happened yet!)

PatC

[Tixylix]

As for citalopram...I was on these myself for two and a half years up until Christmas last year. They did slow down my concentration and ability to play...but they pretty much slowed down my ability to think about most things all the time I was on them. It was extremely frustrating, but I tried not to get too worked up about it- with various levels of success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) One day I could play ok- another it was a disaster. I just left the piano and went off and did something else instead. I learnt that the more frustrated I became, the worse it got. Quite often I couldn't care less if I never played piano again.

I've felt like this too many times to count over the past few months in the run-up to my G8 piano exam. It's unbelievably frustrating when it varies so much from day to day and I know I don't really want to give up but sometimes it is so irritating. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has felt like that.

From earlier replies to my question I was going to take a rain check on going back to the GP's, and put it down to my extremely negative thought patterns. But I'm glad that you know how it feels, having been on the same 'happy pill' as what I'm on now. I feel like some times there is this thick mist between my eyes and music stand, or that there is 'something' that's stopping the information from sinking in. My teacher has put me onto the Paul Harris IYSR grade 2 book, which I started at stage 1 exactly one week ago today. I follow what he says to the letter and when I do play the exercises I do them slower than Dead Slow. Sometimes I can play them perfectly, other times I don't sharpen or flatten buy I try to keep a good rhythm.

I do hope to God that I will be ready to take the exam in June/July, but maybe a visit to my GP will be in order. I first started playing when I was only a couple of years younger than you, primrose.....however I convinced myself I wasn't that good (was the depression talking) and only started again in January.

I understand the 'brain fog' effect only too well. I'm on 3 different psych meds - an anticonvulsant, an atypical antipsychotic and an atypical antidepressant - and the mist that you mention is very familiar. In my piano lesson last week I was having a particularly foggy day and had a G8 sight-reading put in front of my (my exam is in 2 weeks), noted that it was in A major and got to the end of the first line before I realised I wasn't playing any G sharps. I have known the key of A major for about 15 years but on that day my brain decided it only had 2 sharps, even though it was written in front of me.

Sight-reading is challenging, and it does take a long time to work on - I'm still not brilliant at it now but I'm a lot better than I was two and a half years ago when I started playing again after a 3-year break. Progress can be very slow and it can feel like none is being made but gradually it will come. The negative thoughts don't help when progress is something that really needs to be measured in months and years rather than days or weeks, but if you keep at it you will improve. Showing up is half the battle - if you practise sight-reading every day, even just a little bit then it will add up.

[Lee King]

I think I'll print out this thread and read it in bed!

BTW I'm on anticonvulsants too, Carbamazepine 200mg, have been since 1985 but that doesn't seem to have stopped me from picking up Cymraeg really quickly!!

[DaisyChain]

Have a chat with your GP. As well as citalopram, I had some terrific counselling which helped enormously. Last summer I decided that I'd had enough of taking tablets, and with my GP and counsellors support, I was gradually weaned off them. Sometimes I think I should go back and ask for more (I still have some dark moments) but I use the coping techniques my counsellor gave me instead. I've been studying for various courses and am fortunate enough to have a small teaching practice which gives me something to keep busy with! I started singing lessons again just before Christmas last year, and am preparing for grade six to take this winter.

So..it is possible to get out of a dark place, but you must pace yourself. Work towards grade three, but wait until the winter session in Nov/Dec perhaps? By then, you'll be well on the way with your sight-reading.

Pick up random pieces and sight read the first four bars, or start somewhere in the middle of the piece. Your teacher is doing the right thing I think. I was going to suggest going back a grade or two. Take time to analyse what you see before playing it. Try and 'hear' the tune in your head before you play it. Sing everything you play too. All this sort of thing is covered in the IYSR books.

All the best.

[anacrusis]

Citalopram and the other SSRIs, fluoxetine, sertraline, and paroxetine, are used for those needing to keep a clear head, as first line management for depression. I agree with aesir22 on this one - the process of the illness is what is more likely to be causing a slowed up feeling for you than the medication. We use them when we know patients will have to be able to focus: we know that in the first couple or three weeks of starting, some feel an increase in anxiety, but this settles, and starting on a low dose first off helps avoid the worst of that. Mums of young babies prefer them to the sedative sorts, so that they are better able to wake up for their children through the night: whilst some can end up feeling more snoozy on them, in general they're taken in the mornings because they are most likely to keep people awake if taken at bed time.

There are several other classes of antidepressant, some of which do have a sedative effect, as do many of the antipsychotics. Anticonvulsants are different, and some of these can impair coordination: they're probably more likely to cause difficulties with fine motor learning - for instance, I know a woodwind player who lost the ability to double-tongue through developing epilepsy and needing a particular anticonvulsant to control that.

I agree with many of the others - I'd not beat yourself up over one single skill - it may be a very useful one, but there are many who never find it that easy to do, so you're not alone in this, and if doing exams, it's a relatively small chunk of the marks. Failing scales, my bete noire, didn't stop me managing to get a distinction at grade 7 - and after that I too got wise to the best strategy for me, and decamped to Trinity, which gave me an opportunity to show off my musicality in alternative, equally valid ways (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

[Juan Carlos]

As for citalopram...I was on these myself for two and a half years up until Christmas last year. They did slow down my concentration and ability to play...but they pretty much slowed down my ability to think about most things all the time I was on them. It was extremely frustrating, but I tried not to get too worked up about it- with various levels of success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) One day I could play ok- another it was a disaster. I just left the piano and went off and did something else instead. I learnt that the more frustrated I became, the worse it got. Quite often I couldn't care less if I never played piano again.

I've felt like this too many times to count over the past few months in the run-up to my G8 piano exam. It's unbelievably frustrating when it varies so much from day to day and I know I don't really want to give up but sometimes it is so irritating. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has felt like that.

From earlier replies to my question I was going to take a rain check on going back to the GP's, and put it down to my extremely negative thought patterns. But I'm glad that you know how it feels, having been on the same 'happy pill' as what I'm on now. I feel like some times there is this thick mist between my eyes and music stand, or that there is 'something' that's stopping the information from sinking in. My teacher has put me onto the Paul Harris IYSR grade 2 book, which I started at stage 1 exactly one week ago today. I follow what he says to the letter and when I do play the exercises I do them slower than Dead Slow. Sometimes I can play them perfectly, other times I don't sharpen or flatten buy I try to keep a good rhythm.

I do hope to God that I will be ready to take the exam in June/July, but maybe a visit to my GP will be in order. I first started playing when I was only a couple of years younger than you, primrose.....however I convinced myself I wasn't that good (was the depression talking) and only started again in January.

I understand the 'brain fog' effect only too well. I'm on 3 different psych meds - an anticonvulsant, an atypical antipsychotic and an atypical antidepressant - and the mist that you mention is very familiar. In my piano lesson last week I was having a particularly foggy day and had a G8 sight-reading put in front of my (my exam is in 2 weeks), noted that it was in A major and got to the end of the first line before I realised I wasn't playing any G sharps. I have known the key of A major for about 15 years but on that day my brain decided it only had 2 sharps, even though it was written in front of me.

Sight-reading is challenging, and it does take a long time to work on - I'm still not brilliant at it now but I'm a lot better than I was two and a half years ago when I started playing again after a 3-year break. Progress can be very slow and it can feel like none is being made but gradually it will come. The negative thoughts don't help when progress is something that really needs to be measured in months and years rather than days or weeks, but if you keep at it you will improve. Showing up is half the battle - if you practise sight-reading every day, even just a little bit then it will add up.

I know the 'brain fog'effect only too well ..., too, as I was on benzodiazepenes for quite a long time for sleeping problems. About 6 years ago, though, I decided my doctor was doing the wrong thing and hit upon Professor heather Ashton's site for benzo users and gradually came off them with a very carefully tailored taper (suggested on the site). I helped myself by participating on the Benzodiazepine Forum and offered to translate Ashton Manual for benzo users into Italian and Spanish and slowly managed to beat the addiction in no less than 12 (very hard) months, drop by drop until I got to none. I did not have the right perception at first but it was a blessing I 'dropped the drops' and things started to work much better for me. What I found out then (and this gives me the creeps) was that many people are put on these drugs without actually needing them. regrettable, to say the least.
I took up the piano just about at the same time I stopped taking the benzo's and music helped me out of the depression pills had given me.
Back to the topic. Piano sight-reading is just about the most difficult thing to achieve and it has always been by far my weakest point and I continue to find it a very hard skill to develop. However, I must have made progreess as I wouldn't be tackling Grade 7 material otherwise, but I get into a sort of panic every single time I am confronted with a sight-reading exercise. I lack the courage, boldness, clear-mindedness and coordination to make a good job of it. The only way one can anywhere near a good command of sight-reading is overcoming apprehensions, not worrying about the strong sense of embarrassment one gets (even when playing alone, in my opinion) and doing it, doing it systematically every day for no more than 10 minutes, but every single day. If you feel the material you're trying to sight-read is somehow above you use material of a lower standard and find out which point you can start at and go on from. This is the only way and my teacher sees to it I never go without any sight reading (though I am sometimes 'clever' enough to use too much time for other things and not have enough for this nightmarish part of the class (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .
I have always got pass marks in sight reading but the feeling has always been that the way I sight-read is disastrous and it often is.
To be honest, I do not think the difficulty has to do with any drugs (except extremely strong ones) and loads of people who take no psych meds and never have taken any have great difficulty sight-reading piano music anyway. BTW, my sight-reading with one-line scores is great but the second stave makes the job almost impossible ... however, I hope some good angel will take pity and look down when I take my Grade 7 (in June ) and give me that inspiration needed to play decently well ...

[anacrusis]

Please note though, benzos are not antidepressants: they're anxiolytics.