Teaching Piano Scales Options

[VSB]

Whats the best way to teach scales? Start with one octave and when thats learnt teach 2? Or start with 2 octaves straight away? Should they be allowed to play them hands together when learning scales i.e. pre-grade 1 or should pupils stick to hands separately? Thanks

[Lucid]

Whats the best way to teach scales? Start with one octave and when thats learnt teach 2? Or start with 2 octaves straight away? Should they be allowed to play them hands together when learning scales i.e. pre-grade 1 or should pupils stick to hands separately? Thanks

Hi.

I'm not a piano teacher but did have lessons when I was younger. I believe that for piano exams they are not required to play hands together until grade 3. But I imagine the best approach would be to judge it by each student. Start hands separately and if they take to the scales really well I don't see any reason why they can't have a go hands together - even if they're very early beginners. Normally the best approach to scales is to start with 1 octave up and down (sometimes down and up) and then gradually extend the range to 2 octaves and more. But for pianists it might be best to have a go at 1 octave hands separately and then maybe try both hands together - sticking to 1 octave. I'm sure there are many piano teachers on here who will be able to let you know their exact methods though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Lucid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[possom]

Usually on a pupils first lesson I have them playing C 1 octave contrary, if not 1 octave then a 5 finger scale. It's great for motivating them as they can play something with both hands straight away. Most pupils learn a lot of keys 1 octave before moving on to 2, although I taught someone yesterday on a first lesson the concept of crossing under and over and they played C major 4 octaves so that may be a new approach i'm going to try from now on. If they are having trouble remembering finger positions it's a good idea to crush all of the notes in one hand position at a time. eg fingers 123 on CDE played as a chord, then fingers 1234 on FGAB as a chord.

[maggiemay]

Piano scales for AB are hands together from grade 2.

One danger of playing hands together too soon is that fingering starts out haphazard, and is then very difficult to sort out.
Many teachers wouldn't teach "thumbs under" technique in the first few lessons either.

[possom]

Maybe I should point out that my beginners tend to be aged 10-adult, I rarely take on anyone younger. My pupils don't have a problem with fingers misbehaving!

[petrat]

When teaching youngsters we always begin by playing what I call the Animal Song. After a few basics about note finding and D the Dog etc we play the scale of C major using finger 3 to play each note.
"C the cat, D the dog, E the elephant, F the frog" etc.
This helps to get used to the sound of a major scale and the way around the keyboard.
Later I introduce "thumb passing under fingers" work and they learn how to play a one-octave scale using the standard finger pattern. The scale of C for the left hand is played descending from Middle C at first so that the 1 2 3 thumb pattern is well established. Contrary motion C major follows and then lots of other scales using the same C major pattern for one octave only. I always introduce minor scales too, very early on.
When the time comes to teach two or more octave scales we play a one octave scale ascending, move the hands and play another one an octave above the starting point for the original one. Changing to a "tea-coffee" (Crotchets for the key notes and quavers for the rest) rhythm helps as it shows just where both thumbs should be.
I find that my pupils really enjoy scales. Yesterday I had a mini tournament with a grade seven pupil where we had an end of the piano each and played one octave scales on every note, moving up chromatically. We played majors and both forms of minor.
One of my pet hates is to see a young pupil coming for a first lesson who has been shown a C major scale by a parent or friend. They always play with the most dreadful hand position and stick their elbows high as the thumbs move under the fingers. It can take quite a while to un-learn this.

[Czerny]

Whats the best way to teach scales? Start with one octave and when thats learnt teach 2? Or start with 2 octaves straight away? Should they be allowed to play them hands together when learning scales i.e. pre-grade 1 or should pupils stick to hands separately? Thanks

I think you have to decide these things on an individual basis - one advantage of individual lessons! Generally contrary motion is easier than similar, as the fingering (and notes, in some scales) are symmetrical, so C major contrary (one octave) is quite a good place to start - and is, of course, one of the Grade I scales. Incidentally, I've found that Eb contrary is quite a good way to introduce this scale at Grade III before doing it in similar motion.

There are lots of little exercises you can use, or make up, to introduce scales (some good ones in Piano Time 1) rather than leaping in with several octaves if the pupil doesn't seem ready for that.

[maggiemay]

Incidentally, I've found that Eb contrary is quite a good way to introduce this scale at Grade III before doing it in similar motion.

Yes - I find that works well too ! Much easier to learn than Bb ...

Agree with Noodle about building up gradually too.

[VSB]

Thanks everyone thats really helpful

[Mad Tom]

Start with B major, hands separate. It is the most comfortable for the hands, and the easiest for learning to pass the thumb under. Learn one octave initially but quickly move to two octaves, as that includes the RH technique of passing the thumb under the 4th finger as well as the third. Going beyond two octaves is less important - though the greater distance, and different sonorities, require more control.

The basic technique is fingers barely leaving contact with the keys, and even tone. Later, other varieties of touch, rhythm and accentuation can be practiced

When the fingering and touch are absolutely secure introduce hands together. The main emphasis on hands together is for LH and RH notes to sound precisely together. This is acheived through sloooooow practice and intent listening. And when it is achieved constant vigilance is needed to avoid back-sliding.

Add other scales in the same way. Work on groups of scales together in which the basic fingering is the same.

[jenny]

Start with B major, hands separate. It is the most comfortable for the hands, and the easiest for learning to pass the thumb under.

The obvious problem here is that LH starts on finger 4....

[Mad Tom]

Start with B major, hands separate. It is the most comfortable for the hands, and the easiest for learning to pass the thumb under.

The obvious problem here is that LH starts on finger 4....

It is a FACT certainly. But why is it a problem? There are several finger patterns to learn. (e.g. Bb maj, RH starts with 2 on Bb). Why should:

LH 54321 321 4321 321

be assumed to be the "right"one to learn first?

[HelenVJ]

I like B maj as a first scale too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technically, I like to do a few scales similar before introducing contrary, as this avoids the common problem of the elbows swinging out like chicken wings whenever the thumbs go under.

We play on the black keys by ear quite a bit first - eg Frere Jacques starting on F# , with the LH starting and RH imitating in canon is a good challenge ( for adults as well as younger beginners). Maybe I'm lucky, but most students crack this in a week . This can lead nicely into F# major similar - quite hard to get wrong, as the black key pattern is so helpful, and the thumbs meet on the 2 white keys. This is usually the first 'hands tog' scale we do. Then D flat major, then maybe B, and E - and then E major contrary.

Then we 'scale' up the white keys only - starting anywhere except C, to get used to the sound of different patterns. Fingering : 1st using 12, 12, etc with elbow still - when that's getting smooth then 123, 123 - and finally 1234. Only then do we focus on 'standard' fingering for white key scales, and do clusters of 3 4 3 5 up (and down) the keyboard, emphasising the use of the wrist to change position.

When introducing a new scale - eg A maj, we'd do the clusters starting on A with white keys only, and then work out which black keys are needed. Then similar, contrary, various rhythms, and (eg) crotchets in LH, quavers in RH and then swap over.

Of course, we'd only spend approx 5 ish mins on this at the start of every lesson, before getting on to some real repertoire. It's all developmental and cumulative. Hopefully.

I can't imagine starting hands tog scales with C maj and then gradually adding #s. Not only is it very tricky technically - the lack of black keys makes it hard to kep track of where the thumbs should come!

Phew - anyone would think I was keen on scales or something! I'm not - it's only a means to an end. And there's no point in doing them before some basic finger control's been established, so I wouldn't introduce too many too soon.

Oh - and I try not to look at the AB scale syllabus too much, to see which scale is at which grade, as I think they've got it all a bit back to front. ( Well, of course I do check before they do an exam, but that doesn't happen too often!)

[Mad Tom]

Start with B major, hands separate. It is the most comfortable for the hands, and the easiest for learning to pass the thumb under.

The obvious problem here is that LH starts on finger 4....

It is a FACT certainly. But why is it a problem? There are several finger patterns to learn. (e.g. Bb maj, RH starts with 2 on Bb). Why should:

LH 54321 321 4321 321

be assumed to be the "right"one to learn first?

As it's the most common pattern for scales to be learnt at grade 2?

Hmmm - that makes it the most expeditious way to prepare a student to pass Grade 2. That has got nothing to do with the best way to build a solid technique from the ground up.

Most students won't attempt Grade 2 until they have been playing for a year or so, and in many cases for much longer. So that is plenty of time to start with Bmaj, master the basic techniques, and then progress through the progressively trickier E maj, A maj, D maj, and G maj to the scale that is by far the most difficult to play smoothly, the awkward and nasty Cmajor.

[ad_libitum]

Either I've been very lucky (or just very insistent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) with pupils and scales.

The routine I seem to have got into with most is that we play them first and foremost before we open any books. I suppose I've taken that from the way my early lessons were structured, but it seems to work as a warm up, plus it gets them out of road quickly! If they think they can't start on the music before they've played their scales it's amazing how quickly they pick them up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Only a few seem to want to bother with scale books and that's usually if they already have one from years ago. If I'm teaching someone from the beginning I don't really bring scale books up unless I think it would really be useful.

B major has a nice easy "pattern" on the keyboard, and E major is good like that too. Sometimes the music with the 4 or 5 sharps makes them think it's harder to play than it actually is in practise.

I don't know if there is a "best" way to teach them as I do it different ways depending on the student. It's usually simple enough to teach 2 octaves once they are playing one. In a C major pattern, you are just putting your thumb where you would normally put your 5th finger to go back down - then you're just repeating the same pattern. Once you can play 2 ocatves, you can play 4 if you want it's all the same (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We do hands together just whenever they are ready, but it's a good idea to still play them separately as well. I got caught out at grade 8 being asked for a scale with only left hand and felt really stupid because I hesitated... mind you if I'd read the syllabus properly I would have been ready for that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)