Why are audiences for classical concerts so old? Options

[Chris H]

Well, probably because they like classical music better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) We go to all sorts of concerts - generally the jazz ones have a more mixed audience in terms of age group (and colour), although that does depend on the type of jazz. Some pop concerts have quite an aging audience, it depends on how long they have been around. I once went to see a band with my then 13 year old son, and I don't think there were many people over the age of twenty there - apart from other parents of young teenagers, that is.

My eldest son seems to have got used to the elderly people at classical concerts, but at the last one someone looked askance at his longish hair and tatty jeans, and remarked loudly to her friend: "let's go upstairs and get away from the hoi polloi". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[GMc]

This has been pretty much the same for the last 45 years (I am 48 and have gone regularly to concerts since about age 3). We used to laugh about this in London in my youth but London had much younger audiences than anywhere else big where I have lived; Toronto, Vancouver, Paris, Sydney, Perth, Melbourne and now exceptionally geriatric Adelaide. You get a smattering of last minute reduced price music students and a smattering of musical families (never all of them together, a few at a time) and the rest are near retirement or over it.

Looking at the price of subscriptions you can sort of see why. Two adults could dine out at the poshest places in the city with good wine for the price of 2 tickets to one concert. If you go to 12+ concerts the price comes down a bit for subscribers but thats a lot of money overall. No one goes to 12 massive pop concerts a year (also v expensive) so you cant really compare the two. I am comfortably off by comparison with many others and we are a very musical family. But we only subscribe for 2 for the symphony orchestra, 2 for Musica Viva and 2 for the state opera and ballet. and we share those tickets between us so we rarely all go at once. The big name concerts sell out quickly so if you dont subscribe you have to scramble for one off tickets as they open to the general public. If you subscribe and want to change dates it is a massive saga that is very offputting.

I will say that Tim Minchin and the ASO was one of the first concerts to sell out first this year here and the audience was younger for that. If you program the "right" stuff you can get the younger ones in - I see next year we have a Lord of the Rings concert, a distant Worlds thing (some video game plus orchestra I am told), a Beatles extravaganza, an Ennio Morricone Live thing, a Martial arts trilogy by tan Dun and several outdoor things where you can bring a picnic and the kids usually run riot so we avoid them like the plague .....they do try to get new bums on seats clearly.

Concession prices are very attractive - for the retired and for children. I am a bit surprised the retired dont take their grandkids more often - they do to the ballet all the time though. Ballet has a much younger audience than classical music - all those young girls.

They even charged like a raging bull the other day here for the Yamaha Young Pianists scholarship concert!! The performers ranged from 12-17. No wonder it was 9/10ths empty. And you had to find a parking spot in the middle of town on a bank holiday. It was free for under 14s but it certainly wasnt for adults. They should have made it far cheaper and they would have filled the very large hall and given the prize winners a decent audience. Funny though isn't it. When the state youth orchestra play their families all come out of hiding and the average age is suddenly well under 40. But they dont seem to go to much else.

[liseypeasy]

My eldest son seems to have got used to the elderly people at classical concerts, but at the last one someone looked askance at his longish hair and tatty jeans, and remarked loudly to her friend: "let's go upstairs and get away from the hoi polloi". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)
[/quote]

Aww what a sweet old lady. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Do I detect a crack in this class free society?

Last week went to a free concert at the Uni of Manchester - Danel quartet - in a sea of mostly fresher and returning music students I could see just one gentleman of very much post-retirement age who looked very comfortable, even a little smug, to be the only one of his kind. There's always one to buck the trend.

[Aquarelle]

It might, here, be something to do with the fact that only around 2% of young people actually learn to play a musical instrument and not all of those instruments would come under the heading of "classical" in any case.
There isn't really any musical education in schools here which would encourage anyone to take an interest in classical music.

We have very limited opportunities to attend concerts because I live in a very rural area but there are some worthwhile local associations and choral societies who do put on quite good concerts. There are usually a small handful of teenagers (often my pupils) and two or three children in the audience.

On the whole the image of the classical musician here seems to be that such people are stuffy snobs. This is, of course not necessarily true, but since that is how the young perceive it then I don't think the situation will improve until the image changes. When orchestras stop always appearing in black, when at least some of their concerts can be done in smart casual attire, when student prices are available for at least some concerts, when publicity gets into schools, colleges and universities things might improve. I daresay this does happen but obviously not enough.

Another thing I think is the repertoire. If we want to build a younger concert going public then we have to explore the kind of repertoire that will appeal. i don't mean dumbing down - I mean doing the really exciting stuff - virtuoso concerti, short but imaginative works, varied programmes. Some of my pupils sat valiantly silent through a series of really boring French songs at the last concert I went to but they did love the Harmonious Blacksmith variations played by an excellent harpsichordist.

One thing I did notice was when I went to the opera in Toulouse the audience was much younger than I expected - "Prokofiev "Love in a Monastry" sung in Russian (ex-pupil of mine in the lead role - she moasts!). But then Toulouse is a lively university town.

[Cyrilla]

It might, here, be something to do with the fact that only around 2% of young people actually learn to play a musical instrument and not all of those instruments would come under the heading of "classical" in any case.
There isn't really any musical education in schools here which would encourage anyone to take an interest in classical music.

I think this is the crux of the problem.

One of Kodaly's desires was to produce a musically literate nation who therefore understood the music they were listening to.

"I would advise my young colleagues, the composers of symphonies, to drop in sometimes at the kindergarten. It is there that it is decided whether there will be anybody to understand their works in twenty years' time." (Zoltan Kodaly)

It is noticeable in Hungary, although the glory days of top quality music education across the country are waning, that there are large and mixed-age audiences for classical concerts.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[rovikered]

Is it because people only develop a taste for classical music as they mature, or will audiences dwindle as the current generation dies off? This is a question which has been occupying my son and myself, as regular attendees of classical concerts. You can count the number of teenagers on the fingers of one hand, and my son can feel rather out of place amidst the sea of grey hair.

Any thoughts?

I think the answer is simple: teenagers (generally) prefer pop music and most of them have no knowledge of classical music.
A more difficult question to answer is: how do we begin to interest young people in classical music and attract them to concerts? Only a very small percentage of children learn to play a musical instrument and by no means all of those go to concerts or have any desire to do so.

[Ayshah]

Even in London with the variety of discounts, costs are a primary factor for most but especially for the young. My children still go to fairly regularly to classical music concerts but they come from that background where they understand what they are listening to and appreciate the technique of the performers.

We used to take our children to the outdoor Kenwood concerts in North London when they were young but stopped when the sponsors put in the many bars and attracted a drinking crowd whose chatter got louder and louder so one could not to actually hear the music for as the young people drank more. But these concerts did have quite a generous audience of young people.

The proms are full of young people because they can afford the the proming tickets. All my kids still que for these regularly every year, with two regularly buying season tickets. They usually go in a group of a dozen or so. However the friends are usually all music students.

No 2 daughter has regularly taken non-music boyfriends to concerts and they have said how much they enjoyed it but its just not on their radar to actually think about classical concerts.

compare this to the many summer (pop) Music Festivals. I used to be horrified at the price of a ticket for 3 days in a field with basic facilities, using your own tent and subject to the weather. But when you consider how many bands and the variety of music therin it is incredibly cost effective for a three day bash! My youngest went to 7 music festivals this summer (having save all year for them), and said if she had to pay to hear each of many bands at individual concerts it would have been utterly astronomical and she couldnt do it. Not that I am advocating a Classical Music Festival in a Field for Three days but so much of it comes down to money.

My OH and I subscribe to many of the big venues in London but we calculate how much we want to spend on Concerts per annum and sometimes we are unable to eat out. If we, do we often dont have wine so that its not an expensive night out. But then we are in the "old" age group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dugazon]

It might, here, be something to do with the fact that only around 2% of young people actually learn to play a musical instrument and not all of those instruments would come under the heading of "classical" in any case.
There isn't really any musical education in schools here which would encourage anyone to take an interest in classical music.

I think this gets to the point - you need to get them young, and by this I mean (pre)primary age. Secondary is already to late.

And at this point, the education system fails spectacularly. I find music education at school quite shocking these days. I am really not a classical music snob, as most people here will know (in fact, I consider myself more of a contemporary musician these days, but I haven't always been), but if I see the musical diet kids are fed at schools, I could quite honestly puke. Better don't get me started.

It's like food - if you never try it, you don't know what it tastes like, and you might even say "Bleurgh!" without actually knowing it.

[Cyrilla]

It might, here, be something to do with the fact that only around 2% of young people actually learn to play a musical instrument and not all of those instruments would come under the heading of "classical" in any case.
There isn't really any musical education in schools here which would encourage anyone to take an interest in classical music.

I think this gets to the point - you need to get them young, and by this I mean (pre)primary age. Secondary is already to late.

And at this point, the education system fails spectacularly. I find music education at school quite shocking these days. I am really not a classical music snob, as most people here will know (in fact, I consider myself more of a contemporary musician these days, but I haven't always been), but if I see the musical diet kids are fed at schools, I could quite honestly puke. Better don't get me started.

It's like food - if you never try it, you don't know what it tastes like, and you might even say "Bleurgh!" without actually knowing it.

Absolutely. I think this was the point I was trying to make above - so much of this boils down to education. People are not going to go to something they know nothing about and don't understand or appreciate on any level.

Kodaly had a lot to say about the inculcation of good taste and also about when music education should begin ('nine months before the birth of the mother').

Two years ago I saw these amazing 14 year olds in Hungary doing two demonstration lessons. At the end of one the teacher played them part of Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand..and you could see them all utterly transported and singing with the recording. The teacher remarked that this was one of their favourite pieces. I'm not sure many of our 14 year olds would say the same... These teenagers attended classical as well as pop/rock on a regular basis - because they KNEW, understood and appreciated the music.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jod]

It might, here, be something to do with the fact that only around 2% of young people actually learn to play a musical instrument and not all of those instruments would come under the heading of "classical" in any case.
There isn't really any musical education in schools here which would encourage anyone to take an interest in classical music.

I think this gets to the point - you need to get them young, and by this I mean (pre)primary age. Secondary is already to late.

And at this point, the education system fails spectacularly. I find music education at school quite shocking these days. I am really not a classical music snob, as most people here will know (in fact, I consider myself more of a contemporary musician these days, but I haven't always been), but if I see the musical diet kids are fed at schools, I could quite honestly puke. Better don't get me started.

It's like food - if you never try it, you don't know what it tastes like, and you might even say "Bleurgh!" without actually knowing it.

I think you are partially there, however I'm thinking how the boys have been treated when they've gone to concerts. Some of the older patrons are incredulous that they are there and expecting them to misbehave looking at me as if I have a screw loose even thinking that children could possibly enjoy string quartets!

This contrasted strongly with the members of the quartet who were delighted to see children in the audience.

Then there was the occasion when I was in my 20s when a previous boyfriend took me to Covent Garden to see Birtwhistle's Gawain. Some older bloke tried to show-off about the performances he'd attended. Unfortunately (for him) Huddersfield had and still has a Contemporary Music Festival that as an undergraduate I helped at. I promptly shut him up with the four words When I met Cage...

If younger people who do attend concerts come across people with these attitudes are they going to want to keep attending?

When I see children at concerts I want to know what they think was the best bit rather than demonstrate my prowess. Unfortunately many older audience members are not like that.

No wonder the children return to their comfort zone when it is a new experience and they are made to feel uncomfortable too.

[Claudia's Mum]

I've never encountered anything but nice comments from the rest of the audience when taking Claudia to concerts which I have been doing since she was a baby, sitting at the back at first, just in case....

Maybe I have been lucky as she has always sat completely still mesmerised by the music! I've always wondered whether it had something to do with the fact that I took the radio to hospital with me and had Classic FM playing during her birth!

[mel2]

It's worrying to read so many negative and, frankly, age-ist comments here; as though if there is a sea of grey heads in the audience then the performance is a failure. I wonder if I am detecting an undercurrent of thinking that perhaps by scheduling specific avant-garde works, the older audience will be deterred and not offend the sensibilities, or worse, get in the way of, the young. Not likely to work.

Broadcasters and film-makers endlessly strive to attract the younger audience for some reason. Why? surely the advantage of youth is that one can find better things to do!

It is a fact of nature that one's expression appears more gloomy as one ages; it is due to gravity, hence the popularity of face-lifts amongst those with the dosh. I wonder if some of the disapporoving looks ascribed to the senior audience members is simply a relaxed face-in -neutral with no ill-will behind it. (I've been told to 'cheer up - it may never 'appen' more than once when I was perfectly happy.) Rudeness will be encountered in any demographic, unfortunately.

Let's be thankful for the grey pound swelling the coffers at concert halls; so what if they are in receipt of pensioners' rates? Students also enjoy discounts.

We'll all be there one day -get used to it.

[Chris H]

We usually take my mum with us to concerts. She's eighty and is rarely able to get a discount, even though both my son and I can get students' discounts. It seems very unfair. My original question was not intended to be critical of older people who attend concerts, I was just wondering if it tended to be something people do as they get older. When I was a child my parents used to take me to light classical concerts at the seaside. The audience used to be predominantly elderly then, so I am assuming that as people get older, some of them start prefering classical music.

Why is there an assumption that young people would like more avant garde classical music? At the moment my son's favourite composers seem to be Elgar. Borodin and Ibert, while his least favourite seem to be Mahler and Mozart. He hates anything that's really avant garde and tuneless - he's walked out in the interval of some of those.

[jod]

It is just experience. I will add I have lots of friends over 60, over 70 and over 80. I really value the pensionable community and find them lots of fun to be around. However there is a small minority who expect two lads to equal trouble. I find this a real pity.

Similarly when Peter was working in the Church the ladies of the Mother's Union absolutely adored my children and slipped them biscuits, sweets and all sorts of treats. The boys were lucky the number of adoptive 'Great Aunts they had as a result was lovely.

Back to the String Quartet Concert, the Quartet liked seeing children, and some of the older members were very impressed with my younger son who sat riveted to the performance. He now has violin lessons.

The concert was my 40th Birthday treat, and fortunately the boys loved it too as with the sparse texture they could hear everything. String Quartets suit mathematical boys as they like to hear how the parts move between the different instruments.

My boys also like Piano music, choral music, Baroque chamber music, song recitals amongst others. They do like popular music, but when I suggest they listen to some of the Classic Bands that I know performed well and wrote decent stuff, they can hear the difference between that and the drivel of the mass-produced stuff a lot of their friends listen to.

[MNW]

I wasn't being negative about the elderly. I was being negative about a group of people who happened to be elderly and because I hold this generation in high esteem I was very disappointed by their lack of manners. I agree that without this group the concert halls would be empty. Anyway, I have grey hairs too....sigh.