Cathedral congregations continue to grow, What can we all learn from this? Options

[Swell Box]

I have just received the following from our Diocesan forum:

(From Paul Judson)
Attendance levels at regular weekly services in Church of England cathedrals have increased significantly again this year, by 7%, say the latest statistics from the Archbishops? Council?s Research and Statistics Unit.

Since the turn of the millennium, they have steadily grown by a total of 37%, which is about 4% on average each year. At Sunday services alone, 15,800 adults and 3,100 children and young people are usually present while over the whole week the figures rise (by 73%) to 27,400 and 7,600 respectively. Westminster Abbey adds, on average, 1,800 people each week to these numbers.

The Revd Lynda Barley, Head of Research and Statistics, said: ?The ministry of cathedrals is valued by many people. They have a treasured place in the heart of the nation and are actively used at key moments in individual lives and on public occasions.?

Midweek attendance has more than doubled since the turn of the millennium and is approaching the same level as Sunday attendance. In 2010, for example, it added 85% to Sunday congregations (slightly higher than previous years). Cathedrals are key places of daily Christian worship outside Sundays adding an additional 73% to the number of adult attenders and more than doubling the number of children over the whole week.

The Revd Lynda Barley added: ?Cathedrals are proof of the benefit of being open and available throughout the week. Attendance at services outside Sundays has grown more significantly by 10% over the past year and will soon double Sunday congregations. Steady growth since the beginning of the millennium is encouraging cathedrals to explore the unique position they hold in the life of the nation and is restoring confidence in mission.?

The latest statistics for cathedrals can be found online at http://www.churchofengland.org/media/12436...s2000to2010.pdf

So; we have some hard figures to work with, but what do they really mean? Do these statistics confirm the view widely held on this forum that happy-clappy music, modern language and trendy vicars are damaging parish churches, or is there something deeper involved?

I for one would be very interested to read any comments, as like many parishes we have regular debates here over the need to 'modernise' services, and especially music; but the statistics would seem to suggest otherwise.

SB

[mel2]

I think many people are commitment-phobes and are horrified at the thought of having to provide input for the day-to -day running of a parish church, or to sit on committees. Others love to run things, which is good, but not many of us like to be under the control of these people, hence the usual conflicts.

Cathedrals are run by people who are good at running things, and everyone likes to be associated with successful ventures. The music, worship and general organization is of a very high order so it is bound to draw in those who appreciate things that are done well, especially if they don't particularly want to provide any of the above themselves.
All very understandable, but preserving anonymity is not exactly in the spirit of the gospels, I don't think. Where does it say in the Bible that thou shalt enjoy the service and then vamoose before thou art asked to do something Christian like visit someone on the the sick list ?

[saxophile]

I think many people are commitment-phobes and are horrified at the thought of having to provide input for the day-to -day running of a parish church, or to sit on committees. Others love to run things, which is good, but not many of us like to be under the control of these people, hence the usual conflicts.

Cathedrals are run by people who are good at running things, and everyone likes to be associated with successful ventures. The music, worship and general organization is of a very high order so it is bound to draw in those who appreciate things that are done well, especially if they don't particularly want to provide any of the above themselves.
All very understandable, but preserving anonymity is not exactly in the spirit of the gospels, I don't think. Where does it say in the Bible that thou shalt enjoy the service and then vamoose before thou art asked to do something Christian like visit someone on the the sick list ?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Plus, the statistics for cathedrals would only be really meaningful / helpful if they could be broken down into 'regular' and more 'one-off' attendance. If cathedrals genuinely are fulfilling a need akin to that which has hitherto been met by parish churches, in terms of providing a focal point for a "community" of believers, you would expect to see a large percentage of regular attenders, roughly analogous to a normal parish's "core" congregation. But if a large part of the numbers recorded are just "church-tourists", dropping in because they fancy a dose of choral evensong in a beautiful building, it is questionable whether there is a whole lot to rejoice over in these figures.

[Dulcet]

I do know some regular cathedral worshippers, who are part of the cathedral community, but I don't think it would be for me week in week out - it's a bit too easy to be detached. I don't think we can draw any meaningful conclusions from this at all!

[Keyhorn]

I do rather think it reflects the decline in parish church music.

For my part, if I gave up my job in a parish church without moving on to another of greater musical scope, I would be off to the nearest decent cathedral like a shot.

[Vox Humana]

Where does it say in the Bible that thou shalt enjoy the service and then vamoose before thou art asked to do something Christian like visit someone on the the sick list ?

I wouldn't assume that all cathedrals are necessarily like this. It is not the case at Rochester, where I used to play from time to time. There, after the Sunday morning Eucharist, the congregation enjoys the usual coffee and chat in the crypt, where one gets good vibes about the community spirit. Indeed, Rochester feels as much like a large parish church as a cathedral, which is how it should be, I think. It is certainly not at all a "stuck up" place. The weekday services are more "monastic", admittedly, but it is hard to see how they could be anything else and in any case I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Unfortunately I can't comment about anywhere else.

[Vox Humana]

It would indeed be interesting to know why cathedral attendances are rising while those in parish churches are falling. The answer may not be clear-cut, but it is hard to imagine what the attraction might be if it is not the style of worship. Maybe people do value worship performed with decorum, dignity and, by and large, good quality music.

[Barry Williams]

These stastics do not disclose the relative attendances at the parish churches (in London and elsewhere) that maintain a professional choir and attract many young people as a consequence of their ministry, which often involves music performed to a very high standard.

The presence of a high standard of music does not prevent full fellowship by the congregation. Saint Magnus The Martyr, near London Bridge, whilst maintaining superb musical standards, nevertheless has a thriving Sunday School and post-service lunch fellowship. The congregation is growing in number, notwithstanding much Byrd, Palestrina, Mozart and Haydn! That church is by no means unique in its style and effectiveness of outreach.

Barry Williams

[Dulciana]

These stastics do not disclose the relative attendances at the parish churches

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. The implications could only be analysed if we could look too at what sort of parish church is also holding/gaining ground, and what sort is losing. Thinking about the churches near me, including where I've played and where I haven't, the key to thriving seems to be 'well structured and formal' in terms of what to expect from a service from clergy and musicians, and with specific regard to music it seems to be 'quality' as opposed to 'style'. One church that is run like a well-oiled machine and that has an excellent praise band (no organ) is going from strength to strength. Another very traditional church with a poor organist and scrappy services is falling by the wayside. My own simple traditional church is gaining ground. Maybe the key is for vestries, clergy and musicians to be well organised and do what they do to the best of their ability, sticking to what they can do well? That sounds a bit basic and obvious, but some clergy and musicians seem to miss the obvious!

[David Cowlishaw]

It would indeed be interesting to know why cathedral attendances are rising while those in parish churches are falling. The answer may not be clear-cut, but it is hard to imagine what the attraction might be if it is not the style of worship. Maybe people do value worship performed with decorum, dignity and, by and large, good quality music.

One common thread in this debate, while not mentioned in every comment, is the approach by clergy and musicians to maintain high standards of church music, be it at cathedral or parish church level. If the management look at liturgy in all its aspects and have a 'ministry of music' attitude then people will not turn away, and think of better things to do on a Sunday.
The church of St. Magnus the Martyr, All Saints Margaret Street and All Souls Langham Place while at opposite ends of the liturgical spectrum are both doing a valuable job.
The killing of church music can often be the result of the 'God doesn't mind wrong notes or whether the choir bothered to turn up' attitude be it in a cathedral or parish church. I have attended both relatively informal services with a music group and more formal liturgical ones and it is only too easy to recognise the good ones.
Those with an organist still leaning the notes when the congrgation is arriving or the music group having a run through 5 mins before; not a good indicator.
Get all that done the day before or much earlier.
Also, if the music group do not play every Sunday are they still in attendance when they are not performing. The organist will probably be there.
David.

[Tosher]

I think the reasons for this need not be complicated.

To directly quote an atheist who I recently took to a service in York Minster, sung by the choirs of Ripon, York & Durham Cathedrals:

"going to a cathedral is better because their music is superior to churches, they have beauty which very few other buildings in the UK have on an equal scale and they have many legends inside!"

Curiously, this person also said about a parish church event that he attended with me a few months ago, that it was one of the most shambolic things he has witnessed, like a cringe-worthy school play. THIS is what parish churches are up against - modest resources, whether that be physical or human assets - resulting in an amateur apperance in relative terms. The exceptions need to not be inserted here - we are aware of them, but up and down the country there are a myriad of places of worship in this kind of position.

Quite seriously though, people identify with and appreciate a good quality 'performance' of whatever event it may be - this is basic human psychology. To go somewhere with good quality music, a grand ambience and appearance, some well respected clergy preaching important messages rather than boring 'safe' sermons and history lessons and to walk away having had a real 'experience' is exactly and solely where these figures come from. Whether that 'experience' is to have simply been impressed by it or to have felt something deeper or whatever else, it all adds up to wanting more. Said atheist said they will return, and has. Obviously, I will encourage this.

A well organised and impressive affair is what appeals to the now desire for increasing quality and prestige. More people are going to university, aspirations are higher, people expect more. This translates in to more walks of life than we can dare suggest.

Explanation enough? I feel, and I know, that this accounts for so many of the 'non-church' folk who have been captured by the Cathedral scene in very recent times. Other factors exist for 'church' folk who have turned to Cathedrals or started to choose them more regularly, but there are political and spiritual issues at play there - all the saviour of a deeper analysis later and probably much discussion.


I should add:

I don't know if the remark was made publicly, but I was recently told by a parish priest in York that the Archbishop of York had recently commented that he thinks the future of church services is "Matins and Evensong done well". I have to wonder what this was said relative to!

[Barry Williams]

Yes Tosher, you are right.

Yet the parish churches can acheive much by doing what they do well. They fail to do so for many reasons.

One reason is that they often attempt things well beyond their capabilities. An example of this is the local church choir singing Howells Collegium Regale and making a mess of it. Another is a 'parish band' only being able to play three chords.

A much more frequent reason is an attempt to be 'matey' in liturgy when it is inappropriate.

Modest resources do not necessarily mean low standards. High standards do not equal complexity. This is, I am sure, what the quote from the Archbishop of York relates to.

Music and liturgy, of themselves, can be acts of evangelism. To succeed in that they must be done well.

Barry Williams

[Dulciana]

Maybe somebody should print out this thread and stick it on all the church doors around the country.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) The effect of good music is hugely underestimated by many among the clergy, as is the effort required to produce it. And aside from this, there are many who simply don't like the idea that it may not be their rambling sermon and chummy approach that people most appreciate, or which produces the greatest feeling of reverence.

[Swell Box]

Yes Tosher, you are right.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

It would be interesting to compare the figures for parish churches of different styles of churchmanship, but I doubt that any such data exists. However, I strongly suspect that the growth in attendance at English cathedrals and successful parish churches comes down to good leadership and management style as much as anything else. Good music follows from good leadership, and forms an integral part of worship. I doubt that there are many churches where the music is better than the leadership.

In the case of cathedrals there is a clear hierarchical structure, and nobody is in any doubt as to who [on paper at least] is in charge of what. Certainly there is very little chance of a lay reader or Music Group leader sabotaging the hymn list, disrobing the choir, or replacing the NEH with Sing Glory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) And so it is in the more successful parish churches.

Problems arise when there is a lack of competent leadership, as this allows groups and individuals with agendas to flourish. The power vacuum created in such places also leads to infighting, cliques and politics of the worst kind, as various groups and individuals vie for power and try to usurp one another in their quest to run the church in the way they want. The atmosphere created in some of these places is nothing short of poisonous, and has no part in Christian worship. Once this kind of situation develops it is only a matter of time before the congregation votes with its feet, leaving those with agendas even more freedom to wreak havoc. In my experience it is usually the oddest of the oddballs that seem to prevail, as they systematically displace those who do not share their 'vision'.

I know of several people who formerly worshiped in parish churches, but who now only attend cathedral services. The main reason given is anonymity, and the fact that one can enjoy a high standard of worship without being asked to join the dusting rota.

I take Mel's point about cathedral congregations, the lack of community and visiting those on the sick list; but I am sure there will be a core of committed regulars in any cathedral congregation who will visit the housebound in much the same way as those from parish churches do; or at least should do.

However, one point which doesn't seem to have been made is that most cathedrals are located in university cities, and many of the newcomers are university students, perhaps encouraged by a handfull of university staff who also attend. Maybe this is something that the church should build on for the future, whilst being mindful of past mistakes?

SB

[Dulciana]

I doubt that there are many churches where the music is better than the leadership.

I know of one where this was the case until the organist eventually voted with his feet - so you're probably right. If the situation exists it will not prevail for long.